508. The Truth About High-Functioning Depression

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Psychiatrist and author Dr. Judith Joseph joins Lesley to unpack "high-functioning depression," a hidden struggle affecting many high achievers who seem successful externally yet feel emotionally exhausted inside. Discover why driven individuals often overlook signs of burnout, the surprising prevalence of anhedonia (lack of joy), and Dr. Joseph’s practical framework—the Five Vs—for understanding and enhancing your personal happiness.

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In this episode you will learn about:

  • How to spot signs of high-functioning depression and overcome anhedonia.
  • Why your emotions, including joy and anhedonia, directly influence those around you.
  • The role of trauma, people-pleasing, and over-functioning in our mental health.
  • Dr. Judith’s biopsychosocial model for understanding your own unique path to happiness.
  • Easy ways to reduce burnout by shifting from constant "doing" to mindful "being."


Episode References/Links:


Guest Bio:

Judith Joseph MD, MBA, is a board-certified psychiatrist, researcher, and award winning content creator who specializes in mental health and trauma. She is chair of the women in medicine initiative at Columbia University Vagelos College of Physicians and Surgeons, clinical assistant professor in child and adolescent psychiatry at NYU Grossman School of Medicine and Chief Investigator at Manhattan Behavioral Medicine, New York City’s Premier Clinical Research Site. Dr. Judith was awarded by the US House of Representatives with a 2023 Congress Proclamation Award for her social media advocacy and mental health research. In 2024 she was named a top 6 NAACP Mental Health Champion and a VeryWell Mind top 25 Thought leader. In 2024 She taught a Workplace Mental Health Course to The Executive Office Of The President of The United States of America. In addition to being a notable public speaker at prestigious institutions, Dr. Judith is a sought after on-air expert who has been featured on Oprah Daily’s The Life You Want Series, Good Morning America, The Wendy Williams Show, Tamron Hall, Today Show, CNN News With Anderson Cooper, The Mel Robbins Podcast, and more. She recently received a 2020 and 2023 Share Care Award for her MedCircle series on PTSD and a Good Morning America investigative special on ADHD. Social media’s favorite psychiatrist, Dr. Judith boasts more than 880,000 followers across platforms, a 30% increase in less than a year. Her Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and YouTube videos receive more than 15 million views per month.

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Episode Transcript:

Dr. Judith Joseph 0:00  

I think the more you practice this, the more exposure you get to this, not only do you change, but the people around you change. I always say Anhedonia is contagious, but joy is contagious too.


Lesley Logan 0:13  

Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I'm Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I've trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self-doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it's the antidote to fear. Each week, my guest will bring bold, executable, intrinsic and targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It's a practice, not a perfect. Let's get started.


Lesley Logan 0:55  

Ladies, and the few good men who listen, hi. This is amazing. This is exactly an episode I wanted to have since last fall. We had a whole topic on Anhedonia, and I got so many of you reaching , going oh my God, tell me more. So, I found an expert. Get your notebooks out. If you're driving, you'll hit, you'll, just listen, because you want to listen again, you're going to take some notes, and also you're going to want to get this book. So Dr Joseph's book is going to be out April 8th, and so you, normally, I don't preview that. I let you fall in love with her and then tell you, but I'm already in love. I'm going to make sure I get my hands on a copy of this book. So definitely check it out, but here, for you to get the help that you deserve and some amazing validation of who you are and what you're going through, here is Dr. Judith Joseph. 


Lesley Logan 1:40  

All right, Be It babe. I am honored, truly. I heard about our guest today through one of my favorite people in this world, Amy Lavell, and so Dr. Judith Joseph is our guest today. She has a story to tell us, and also has done so much research, and I wanted her on the show because my high-functioning peeps, I see you, we keep talking about not being a perfectionist, not over committing, not do all this stuff, but I thought we'd have an expert come in and talk about the journey of what that does to us and how we can get out of it. So Dr. Judith Joseph, thanks for being here. Can you tell everyone who you are and what you rock at? 


Dr. Judith Joseph 2:12  

Thank you so much, Lesley. I'm a board certified psychiatrist. I am based in New York City, and I am high-functioning. AF. All of my followers know it. I do a gazillion things on top of being a single mom. I run a lab, content creation, podcaster, author of my book High-Functioning, conducting the first ever study in the world on high-functioning depression, which is something that you know is not really recognized at all in medical literature. But I don't think the depression of our days is our grandma's depression. I think there's a whole new beast out there, and many of us don't even know that we're walking around with it. So I'm trying to demystify that and to bring useful tools to heal.


Lesley Logan 2:56  

Yeah, that's why I was so intrigued by you. Because what I hear all the time is like, well, I'm not depressed because I get up every day. I do 17 other things, but there's no joy in it. And so can we maybe, maybe take a step back and figure out, like, what is high-functioning depression, and what are the maybe some of the signs that we might be having it?


Dr. Judith Joseph 3:15  

Well, you said two really great things. You said, listen, we're still getting up. We're doing our stuff. It doesn't look like anything's wrong. And you also said something that's really key, that there's just no joy in it. And actually, the two are connected. So when you go to a doctor or therapist, they're going to pull out this bible of psychiatry called the DSM, and they're going to go through checklists. And according to the DSM, the bible of psychiatry, Diagnostic Statistical Manual, if you don't meet criteria for a lack of functioning or significant distress, but you have all these symptoms of depression, like sometimes you have poor concentration, poor sleep, feeling on edge. That's what we call psychomotor agitation or restlessness, low mood, anhedonia, which is a lack of joy and interest and pleasure in things that once used to light us up, but you don't meet that box of lack of functioning or significant distress. They're going to be like, well, you know, come back and see me when things are really falling apart. The problem with that is that there are tons of people out there who have these symptoms of depression but are still functioning and over functioning because they're the rock, right? They're the mom, they're the boss, they're the teacher, you know, they're the doctor, the nurse, that people depend on, so you can't fall apart. So how do they cope? They busy themselves. They people-please and, eventually, something's going to give either they physically burn out, they mentally burn out, they have a major depressive disorder where they actually do stop functioning. They medicate with substances or with alcohol or self-soothe by shopping too much and going broke, right? Something's gonna give. So why are we waiting for people to lose functioning to do something about this? Why aren't we preventing it? And that's where the research comes in.


Lesley Logan 4:56  

Oh my gosh. I think first of all, a bunch of people just were like, uh, I have all these things. That's me. I meet a lot of women who are doing all these things, and yet they don't have that joy, that anhedonia that you mentioned, and they try to get help, and the help is either medications that they don't need right now because they're not fully depressed, or they're being told to come back later, and that's so frustrating to not feel heard, and then you just keep doing because you're like, okay, well, maybe I need to do this other seven things. Maybe these things will be the thing that makes me feel better. So I know that people feel so seen, and also I really hope that this becomes the thing people can get diagnosed with, because in that bible, because it does feel like, as you said, this the depression we're having now is not from grandma, because it's true, I don't have children, but if I just were to take off for a week, my team could do a lot, but at some point I need to, like, show up, like the wheels don't spin without, you know, so , it does, it can feel like there's extra pressure on the women who are going through this. How did you get involved in this topic? Were you just seeing it as a bunch of people coming through, or is it something that you went through? Like, can you tell us a little about how you got intrigued by this? 


Dr. Judith Joseph 6:06  

Yeah, actually, it was during 2020, I was given this talk from the same desk that I'm talking from right now, and it was a large hospital system, and it was April, and people didn't know what the pandemic was going to do. They, I mean, we didn't know anything then, and I was called in to really give people the tools to get through a tough time. And halfway through the talk, I realized, I think I'm depressed, but here I am at my desk with my gazillion degrees behind me, instructing doctors and nurses and healthcare professionals on how to heal. And I didn't even realize that I was depressed because I was a doer, you know, and I had this saying, are you a human doing, or are you a human being, right? And I think a lot of us, that's our coping mechanism, at least for me. I'm an immigrant. I come from scarcity. It was never an option of giving up. You had to, you know, if times are tough, you work harder. If you go through something like a breakup, then you just got to take on more tasks at work, you know. And a lot of us cope with our pain by busying ourselves by doing versus just being and feeling and over time that wears on you. And I found myself at that moment in time during this Zoom talk, having that epiphany, and then led me to wonder, how many people on the other side of the Zoom feel like me, because there are a lot of nurses, a lot of doctors in healthcare. Then I started looking into, you know, some I'm in Manhattan, so a lot of my clients are performers, and they went through a really hard time during the pandemic, being out of work, and then the strikes and all that. And many of them, even though they were feeling depressed, they couldn't show it. They had to mask it, because they have to perform. They have to light up a room. So I just started looking at all these different industries, moms, you know, who have to do so many things. They have to go to work, they have to take care of their jobs. They have to take care of their kids. All these people masking these symptoms and just not slowing down and doing instead of feeling and healing. And I just thought, I'm onto something. So I created a reel on socials in 2022 and it went viral. It's been seen over 10 million times around the world. And I had people reaching out to me from different countries saying, I have that. I have anhedonia. This is me. How did you know? Like people were joking, do you have a camera in my home? That's me. 


Lesley Logan 8:23  

Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I like, as we're sitting here talking, we're two weeks into the new year, so the before, you're, you know, we're taking a few months before everyone's hearing this. And I have friends who are in LA. I lived in LA for 14 years, and, you know, I checked on my friends where I live, where I lived, is still there, because it's kind of in the total middle. And so they're still going to work. Their jobs still expect them to do the thing that they're supposed to do. So they're showing up and doing all the things, and I'm showing up doing all the things, and I'm kind of like, so do we, this is how we just, like handle everything now. We just like keep doing and I think part of it is like it feels normal. And a lot of times we, when there's tough times, we want to do the thing that feels normal, because we we don't want to experience the other thing. But I also think not a lot of us have the privilege in life to not keep doing when stuff is going on, so then you're kind of stuck. You have to keep going, because the world like you are, that's how you get paid, that's how you make a living, that's how all these, that's what people expect of you. And also, you know, there's this underlying currently you can't really deal with so it feels like what you're onto is something that will continue to be happening, but we need to be able to recognize it, so we can label it, so that we can actually go and address it, right? Because we can't just keep living like high functioning, you know, we can't just keep doing that depression. 


Dr. Judith Joseph 9:42  

Yeah, you're absolutely right. I saw this meme, hilarious meme, where it was like, I told my mom I was depressed, and she said, boy, we broke. We don't got time for that, you know. And I thought it was so funny, because you're right when you go through hard times and you don't have the privilege to slow down or others depend on you even if you are economically sound, but others depend on you. You just don't feel like you have that privilege to slow down. You feel like, well, let me just do because that's what I've always done, but you're absolutely spot on, something's gonna give either your body breaks down. And I think that's why a lot of women have these autoimmune conditions, because women, particularly are like they just have so much on their plate. There's so much expected of them. They're not allowed to seem deflated because someone else is going to take your position. Someone's going to say you're on your period, or you're going through menopause. You know, there's just so much on our plates that we don't feel like we can slow down and certain under represented groups, same way, they're just happy to be in the room. Certain industries, doctors, like, if a doctor says that they are experiencing depression in certain hospital systems, they have to report it to the state. I mean, like, there are certain industries that you just can't even say that you're struggling. So I think that if we allow ourselves to process pain, it's not saying that we have to stop everything, because that's like the worst nightmare for someone who's had function AF. It's about teaching them how to get back into their body, how to process their trauma, so that once you start to feel the pain, then you can also feel the joy. But if you continue to numb and you keep on doing you're not going to be able to feel the pain, but you're also not gonna be able to feel the joys in life that we are all, you know, built to enjoy.


Lesley Logan 11:28  

That's so, thank you for sharing that. I think , like it's, to feel, I have a yoga teacher who is like, you cannot have one thing without the other. Like in the world, we want balance, you cannot have love in this world and not have hate. If you get rid of the hate, you get rid of the love. If you want to only have peace, there is war. Otherwise, you wouldn't know what you're in. And so if you want to have joy in your life, you do have to also feel your pain. And I think also not many of us were really raised on how to feel our pain. If I cried in public, it's like, hey, don't do that like you learn to mask it or bury it. And you brought up women with autoimmune issues. It is insane. How many women I know with multiple autoimmune issues, and you start to go, okay, what is going on here is either that we actually are testing for it, or the life that we're living now is causing us to harm our bodies in ways that are not visible, and not even things we would choose to do, but because we just keep shoving and not getting the help we need, or even if you're trying to get help, not being heard to get help. It's causing a lot of issues I feel like cannot be reversed, and we're missing out on a lot of life, you know. And you mentioned something about getting into your body that I love, because I'm a Pilates instructor, and I believe if you get into your body, you know so much about yourself. For the people listening, what are ways that you help people get in their body? What are the ways, the tools that you've used? 


Dr. Judith Joseph 12:49  

Well, I love this Venn diagram called the biopsychosocial model, and I teach my patients. I teach my clients. It's three bubbles, if you can imagine them overlapping, but those three bubbles are a nice representation of each of us, and I always say your happiness is not the same as my happiness. Know the science of your happiness because a lot of people out there, they're trying all these different things, and it doesn't work for them, but that's because they're basing it off of the science of someone else's happiness. But there is only ever going to be one you. There's only ever going to be one Lesley, ever. I mean, when I think about that, I get chills, because it's like you're so unique. So understand what your makeup is. Understand your bio, which is basically your past history, in terms of your family history, your current medical conditions, what are the medicines you take? What are the supplements you take? You know? You have a very unique biology. Understand your psychology. That's the psycho part of the biopsychosocial you have traumas that are different than my traumas, right? You have resilience factors that are different than my resilience factors. You have a different attachment style, possibly to mine, right? Or different strengths or weaknesses psychologically. And then, the social aspect, we're just saying, I live in New York, you live in Vegas, there are different environmental factors there, right? You probably eat different foods than me, or we have different movement routines. You may have a different work environment than me, right? Understand your relationships. Those are all the social things. So we all have unique factors. And if we were taught to understand these overlapping diagrams, we would understand the science of our own happiness, and we wouldn't be chasing after someone else's happiness. That's number one. And knowing about the uniqueness of your happiness, if you're someone who tends to have a lot of pent up trauma in your body, then I could tell you to eat as much kale as possible, but that's not going to treat your trauma, right? So in that case, I'm going to focus on the psychology bubble of that Venn diagram, and I'm going to say, let's try and process that trauma. We may have to do some 5-4-3-2-1, exercises with you, or some more trauma-focused work, like EMDR work or trauma-focused therapy, making you feel safe again, because that's something that trauma survivors, you know, really grapple with that sense of safety and psychological safety, right? But if you're someone who, on the biological end of things, has an autoimmune condition, has headaches and really intolerable physiological symptoms, I'm not going to be like, well, let's put you in a trauma workshop, right? I'm going to say, let's work with your nutritionist, let's work with your movement specialist, let's work with your autoimmune doctor, and let's see if we can bring down the levels of inflammation, right? If the social issue is the problem, let's say you're in a toxic work environment, where every time you walk into work, you're triggered. Your heart is racing. You have broken self-esteem because people are like, not kind to you, and this is your job that you depend on for your livelihood. I'm not going to say, well, you know, let's have you go see your cardiologist. I'm going, to fix that fight or flight sensation in your chest, I'm going to say, it's your work environment. Let's see if we get you more support at work or get you out of that environment. So everyone has different factors going on, and I think that makes us really unique and special, but it also complicates things a bit further. So I wanted to democratize this tool that is taught in all of medicine and let everyone have access to it so they can understand their unique workup and areas that they should really focus on first and their step to understanding the science of their own happiness. 


Lesley Logan 16:24  

I love that and I do see that there's a challenge there, because we are kind of trained that if you ask the question, you should get an answer, and that answer should help you. But it is true. You know, we all have different needs, especially, and at different times. And I love the idea of the three bubbles, because you can evaluate for yourself, oh, it is more of the psychos. That's where I need to go get help. It is more of this. But I do love like defining our own happiness, which is not easy if you never explored that, if that wasn't something that we were invited to do or even feel. And so I think that where I feel my listeners struggle, where I get a lot of questions, is almost like, how do they know if they're happy? How do they know? Because they're so busy doing and they might even feel like the pain of stuff that's going on, but they're having a really hard time feeling what's happy also, because I think as women, specifically, we sometimes feel bad if I'm happy and they're going through something, I should put things around so people can't see that I'm happy. I should bring my happiness. I should come down. So, I mean, is there tips on how to know what makes you happy? 


Dr. Judith Joseph 17:30  

Yes, and that is why I have a happiness lab in New York City. And a lot of people don't know this, but happiness researchers, we very rarely use that word happy. People are like mind-boggled when they hear that, because a patientwho will come in to see me for private practice will say, all I want to do is be happy. And so I wear two hats. I wear the research hat and then the private practice hat, where I do traditional therapy and medication, but the research hat is really trying to understand whether or not this person's getting happy or worse, and we use points in research. And so I developed this scale, the Anhedonia Rating Scale. Anhedonia means a lack of joy and pleasure. So basically, you want to know how many points you're getting in these basic pleasures in life. If you have like, high anhedonia and you're not enjoying things, then that's a problem. I love to use these quantitative ways because unlike, you know, let's say diabetes, right? If you go on for diabetes tests, you know where your glucose is, you know where your hemoglobin A1C is. But with mental health, it's kind of harder, like you don't have a test where you can look at and say, oh, I'm getting happier, right? But these quantitative measures, these tests, are really helpful. So you can go on my website, take the Anhedonia Quiz and see if you're getting points of joy. 


Lesley Logan 18:44  

You have a quiz? 


Dr. Judith Joseph 18:45  

Yes, I have an Anhedonia Quiz on my website, and you can see whether or not you're getting points of joy in life. And then what I ask is that people practice the five V's, because that's based on the science of your happiness. So the five v's are, number one is validation. A lot of us with high functioning we're always pushing down our feelings if they're negative. We only talk about the good. We don't like to talk about the bad. Someone says, how you're doing, oh, I'm great, and your house could literally be burning down, and you're saying, great, you know? So I want people to start learning how to accept their emotions, whether they be negative or positive, and there are many tools that I give in my book on how to validate, because people have a hard time with validation. Number two is venting. How do you express your emotions? And there are ways to do healthy venting, but there are ways to engage in unhealthy venting. I do a lot of content on, you know, narcissistic parents, and a lot of us had parents who trauma dumped on us when it was not appropriate. So I talk about how to vent in an appropriate way and the different creative ways to vent. You mentioned crying. You know, crying is something that a lot of people don't engage in because they think from childhood they were told to stop crying, you know, like you're a cry baby. But crying is actually a very healthy way to express emotions. And when you cry and you let a good cry, your body calms down, you feel relaxed, you feel more connected to you. The third V is values. And I say that values are things that don't have price tags. They are things that are priceless. So tap into things that, you know what and when you think at the end of the day, your last minutes of life, you're not going to be like, I wish I had that Gucci bag. You're going to be like, I wish I had five minutes with my loved ones, or I wish I had 10 minutes to do something that I always wanted to do, you know? So tap into those values. Try to get part of those values once a day. For me, it's learning and sharing my knowledge with my daughter, so, like, I love to learn black history and science, and I teach her because she wants to be a scientist. That makes me feel great, or when I volunteer and I offer my expertise to underprivileged youth, because that was me at one point in life that makes me feel good, that, you know, that's a value that I'm going to be like, wow, I wish I could do. I wish I did more good in life, you know. And then the fourth is vital. So we only get one body and brain. We have to take care of it. And so, you know, that's probably a lot where you come in, in terms of understanding how to honor the mind-body connection, eating foods that decrease inflammation that are not processed, drinking enough water, getting sleep, you know, like putting that phone away and getting really rich sleep, getting movement that actually helps your longevity and makes you feel happier, and understanding how relationships can be very toxic. And I wish that this was taught in school when I was growing up, but a lot of people don't understand how negative relationships can really drain your life force, and then having that healthy work life balance that's all in the vitals. And then the fifth V is vision. How do you plan for joy in the future? And when I say a future, I don't mean like, 10 years from now. I mean like, as in an hour from now. So for example, after this podcast, I'm gonna have a nice dinner, probably curry or sushi, and I'm gonna eat it, not in front of a screen. I might watch a little bit of Emily in Paris, because that's my guilty pleasure. You know, like these are little points of joy that I'm gonna plan, to treat myself, because today I helped people. I talked with you, these are all things that I need to celebrate, but we don't celebrate but we don't celebrate that. We're like, well, we're supposed to be doing these things, you know, no, every time I get my daughter to school on time, I pat myself on the back, and I sit and I drink my coffee, my oat milk latte, and I take my time. I don't go straight to work. I go home. Take my time. It, 5, 10 minutes, and just say I did a good job. I got her to work. I got her to school on time today. These are all things that we can savor in life, but we rush, we're busy. We don't take the time. We don't treat ourselves like human beings. You know, how many times have you eaten in front of a screen and they're like, you can't even taste the food, you know, and you love the food, but you're like, did you enjoy that meal? Not really. I just needed to get rid of that hunger pain. So the five Vs can really help you to understand the science of your happiness. Once you do that Venn diagram, and then you apply the five Vs to your life, it can really make a difference and increase those little points of joy every day. 


Lesley Logan 23:11  

I really love each one of those in a different way, also what I'm getting. I love that you introduced yourself as high functioning AF, because I do think that a lot of the people like myself and the people who listen to this podcast, we start to think like, maybe I should do less. If I just do less, then I'll be happier. But then we are not happier doing less, because we are people who want to do things, and we are high-functioning people we and so I loved that it's not necessarily about not doing stuff, it's about how you do stuff and how you acknowledge what you're doing. And I think that that's really special, because it's sort of going, going, going, it's like, yeah, pat, I got my kid, my daughter at school on time today. Way to go. Yes. We have an episode on Fridays here. It's called Fuck Yeah Friday. And just this year I changed it so, like, I share a story from Instagram or the internet that, like, inspired me, some woman who inspired me whatever she did. But then it's about sharing the wins from the listeners. So they send in a win, and sometimes they send in these wins, like I finally did, blah, blah, blah. And my favorite wins are, like, I actually made dinner for myself and I went to bed on time, and I'm like, yes, that's a win. That's a huge win. You know, we have to give ourselves credit for that, because, just because it's what you think you're supposed to be doing you not celebrating it is not going to help you enjoy doing it in the future, and it's not going to help you do it in the future. So I, those are my favorites, and so that's what the episode is about. It's about celebrating the things we did do, as opposed to like these achievements that we're waiting to celebrate until a certain time comes. I think that that is, it's hard to do. Most people can't see a win in something or a celebration in something that they're supposed to do. So thank you for highlighting that. Your book. You wrote a book. I think anyone who writes a book to get their word out into the world is amazing, because it's not the easiest thing to write a book. Who is the book for and what are you hoping they get from it?


Dr. Judith Joseph 24:55  

I'm glad you said that people who are high-functioning AF want to do everything, because five Vs is a lot. And I can personally say, and I say this in the book, pick one or two, because the rule of twos says you really shouldn't be working on more than one or two things at a time. But I like one and two. I like validation, because it's something we can all do. And I like venting a lot, like, sometimes I'll just be so exhausted, and I'm like, why am I so tired? I'm like, wait a second, I'm not practicing the five Vs. I validate, I acknowledge, actually, I am tired. I had a long day. And then I vent. Sometimes I say it out loud. Or I'll tell my partner, listen, I had a really busy day. Or I'll tell my daughter, I was like, oh, mommy, had a busy day, you know? Like, I then I really try. Or I'll, like, put something on Canva, on IG, and say I've had a rough day, or something like that, but I'm venting. I'm expressing. And the other things, you know, the values, I try to tap into at least something a little a day, you know, for my values, vitals, that's hard to get to. I don't work out every day. I try to, but it doesn't happen. But at least if I'm not going to work out, well, I'm going to eat well. And if I'm not going to eat well, I'm gonna sleep better or drink more water or limit my screen time. So, there's a temptation to want to do it all, but pick one or two and tap into it, and then score yourself and see if the anhedonia is getting better. And I really do believe that once you start to do these things that are not expensive, like these, are all things within your capacity, right, to democratize mental health, you can do these things, and your life will be happier. But this book is for that family member who never acknowledges how they're feeling when they struggle because they're the rock. The book is for that entrepreneur who really is afraid of bankruptcy, doesn't ever want to be in that position again, and overworks and overextends and doesn't enjoy their wins. It's for that mom out there who puts everyone before herself, who feels depleted but can't slow down because she feels empty and restless when she sits still she doesn't even know what makes her happy anymore. You know, it's for that immigrant student who feels as if everyone's dreams are on their back and they can't fail, they can't tell anyone that they're struggling, it really is for those people who wear a mask, like the educator, the teacher who spends all their money getting their students supplies, but doesn't even eat lunch, you know like you are seeing you matter, so take care of yourself, because there's no one else like you, and you're worthy of it.


Lesley Logan 27:27  

That is so beautiful, and I love that you can be in a different walk of life and this book is still for you, because there is, we all have these dreams and aspirations, and sometimes those are other people's dreams and aspirations on top of that, and it can just be a lot. I'm assuming the five Vs are in this book. If people want to, like, read and score and write notes, I do want to attach that I love, that you put values in there. It's something I really in this house, like, we like to all filter things through my, our values. And I'm like, that's a no, because it's not hitting one of these things, and I can't take on more than that. So I love that. And if it can fit one of these things, I could do it, but doesn't. But I never thought about, like, how to make sure I'm acting with that as a way of finding some joy. Because, yeah, that's really, really cool. And yes, I love that if you're not moving well, then eat well. And if you're not going to eat well, then you got to sleep well. You got to do something. You got to do something for your body. Yes. For you, you practice those five Vs because so in 2020 you felt like, okay, I must have this, like, high-functioning depression thing. Obviously, you worked your way through and this is where you're at, is this something that, as a high-functioning person, you might dip in and out of or you can start to recognize it. And the goal is, like you recognize it faster, so you don't go into the depression for too long before you get yourself out. Like, I guess what I'm asking is for my perfectionist is like, is this a light switch once we get over our shit, can we feel really awesome and we never have to go back? Or is this something that we gotta just monitor?


Dr. Judith Joseph 28:55  

I'm glad you said that, because one of the risk factors for this is something called people-pleasing. But people don't realize that people-pleasing is actually a watered down version of masochism. So before the term masochistic personality disorder was removed from the DSM, the bible of psychiatry, it was really a caricature of someone who sacrifices their own happiness for someone else's happiness, or who's constantly in a position of giving and not getting. And when people think of masochism, they think of sex. But it's not that type of masochism. It's the personality traits that makes people bend over backwards when they shouldn't be but they feel as if that's the only way right? These are doers. They do, do do but what ends up happening is that the takers, they don't, like, thank you. They're resentful of you. They're like, well, do everything because you wanted something, or did you think I wasn't capable? So it actually backfires. So falling into these traits of being a doer is a pattern. It's a way of life for so long but yeah, you're going to work on yourself, but there's going to be a time when you fall back, and I'm guilty of that too. I'm constantly oscillating. But when I start to practice the five Vs and I'm like, let me, like I just demonstrated, let me validate that I went through a hard day, let me acknowledge these feelings, it's easier for me to snap out of that downward spiral because I'm practicing these skills. And so I always explain happiness as when we think of happiness, we think of this picture in the future, like I finally got the job, or I finally got the clout, or I finally got the thing that I wanted, the person that I wanted, the home that I wanted. And then what research shows us is that when we get these things, we're still unhappy. We're on to the next right? So my philosophy has shifted to finding happiness in the now. So when I get into that slump where I'm like, looking around me and I'm like, oh, so and so is doing that, and I'm starting to feel low, and maybe I should be doing more, it's easier for me to snap back into my values, right? I acknowledge how I feel, I validate, I vent it, but then I also tap into my values. And I'm like, wait, but I don't value what they value. My values are different, and I'm pretty good right here, where I am, I'm pleased in what I value right now. So that allows me to slow down. And so I think the more you practice this, the more exposure you get to this. Not only do you change, but the people around you change. I always say anhedonia is contagious, but joy is contagious, too. If you've ever had a boss that was a micromanager who was doing everything and you all were like, oh my gosh, we're so busy, we're all burnt out. And if that something good happened to that boss, let's say they finally dated someone, or they finally got validation in life, or something happened and or maybe even they got ill and they realized this is not important. When that boss shifts, the organization shifts, right? An organization is only as good as its CEO. So I think that anhedonia is contagious, but so is joy. So when you start to shift inside, people are going to notice it. They're going to come towards you and be like something's different. I want what you have, and you may not be more successful, you may not have more money, you may not be more beautiful, but you have something that they want, and they're going to gravitate towards you, but you have to get it for yourself. They can't have what you have. And I really do think that people will start to cultivate joy within themselves by understanding the science of your happiness and applying your five Vs to your life. 


Lesley Logan 28:55  

Oh my gosh. I feel like every woman has to get this book for their best friend, just even as preventative, even if your friend isn't going through this yet, it's true that anhedonia is contagious, and also so can that high function like the doing can be contagious too. So I really appreciate you. I feel like we could learn so much. Now I might have to just binge out on every video you make, but I can't wait to read the book when it comes out, and probably send it to 17 of my friends. So we're gonna take a brief break, though, and then find out where people can find you, follow you, work with you, get your book and then your Be It Action Items. 


Lesley Logan 32:58  

All right, Dr. Judith, you truly have given us a wealth of knowledge. Where can people connect with you, get your book. Where do you like to hang out? 


Dr. Judith Joseph 33:06  

So they can buy my book at drjudithjoseph.com or follow me on IG, Dr. Judith Joseph and all the socials they could find my book there. And if you order before the pub date, you get preorder bonuses, and I have courses on the science of your happiness and ways to take you through the five Vs. 


Lesley Logan 33:27  

Oh my goodness. Thank you so much for bringing you. You really have given us a lot, the five Vs is amazing. So if that ends up being part of this Be It Action Items, that's totally fine with me, but something that caused this podcast to exist is I would be drawn to someone and love what they said, and then going, okay, like, what is my first next step, though, you know? And so the bold, executable, intrinsic or targeted steps people can take to be it till they see it. What do you have for us? 


Dr. Judith Joseph 33:51  

I just recently did this guided meditation with Deepak Chopra, and he said something that I thought was profound. He just kept saying, lose your name and just say I am. And it's really like a part of the just be, you know, what is it to just be? And if you could just take five minutes a day just to feel your being, just to get to know yourself again, I think many of us have forgotten who we are. So if you could just be, you know, I say, be a human being, not a human doing, you could learn so much about yourself. That self-reflection time, you could practice the five V's during that time, you could just practice one, validation, right, and just be. It sounds simple, but I think it's very difficult for a lot of us to just be. 


Lesley Logan 34:40  

To sit for five minutes is very difficult. And you guys, like, what I found is like, 30 minutes is only 2% of your day, so five minutes is, like, not even a half a percent. So I don't do math well, so don't correct me. But if we cannot take five minutes for our day, we really do have to re evaluate what we're doing and who we're doing it for, because that is not the easiest thing to just be for five minutes, but ooh, I sit in a cold plunge every morning for four minutes, four minutes. And here's why, my tub is not big enough for my whole body. So three minutes with like, shoulders, hips, stomach, ankles, and then a minute for the knees to go in. And what I can say is I don't want to do it before I get in. I step in and I'm like, why am I doing this? I get in, I'm like, the air is sucked out, and then within a few seconds, you kind of settle in, and you're like, I just have to be here for four minutes. This is all I have to do. And it really is something that I'm so grateful that I do every day, because it does let me, like, set to go okay, today is today. Here I am today. I'm not even thinking about the schedule. It's just kind of like this moment and just being in this moment, where am I feeling this and how am I doing? And I highly recommend it. You don't have to get a plunge, but it just sits still for five minutes and see how you're doing. I highly recommend. I love that Be It Action Item. I think it'll be a challenge for a lot of people, unfortunately, but also I hope it's one that they take on, because I do love that. Dr. Judith, you are fabulous. I hope to one day, run into you and see what you're doing changing this world, because I do think this, your book and what you're saying are really what people are needing to hear right now. And I also just want to highlight one more time, everything you said in those five Vs is not actually going to cost a lot of money. It's like things you can just do by evaluating and addressing. So I appreciate tips like that. So thank you being you. 


Lesley Logan 36:18  

Y'all, how are you gonna use these tips in your life? Make sure you tag Dr. Judith, you tag the Be It Pod, share this with a friend, but this is a friend who needs to hear it, you know, sometimes we feel like we have to help everyone, and sometimes we can help them by sending Dr. Judith's words to them so that she can help them and you can go back to taking care of you. So thank you so much. And until next time, Be It Till You See It. 


Lesley Logan 36:39  

That's all I got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It Podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate the show and leave a review and follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to your podcast. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over at the Be It Pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us and others Be It Till You See It. Have an awesome day. Be It Till You See It is a production of The Bloom Podcast Network. If you want to leave us a message or a question that we might read on another episode, you can text us at +1-310-905-5534 or send a DM on Instagram @BeItPod.


Brad Crowell 37:21  

It's written, filmed, and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan, and me, Brad Crowell.


Lesley Logan 37:27  

It is transcribed, produced and edited by the epic team at Disenyo.co.


Brad Crowell 37:31  

Our theme music is by Ali at Apex Production Music and our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi.


Lesley Logan 37:37  

Special thanks to Melissa Solomon for creating our visuals.


Brad Crowell 37:42  

Also to Angelina Herico for adding all of our content to our website. And finally to Meridith Root for keeping us all on point and on time.



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