628. Learn How to Make Space to Hear Your Intuition

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In this grounded and eye-opening conversation, Reiki Master and tarot creator Frances Naudé joins Lesley Logan to reframe tarot as a tool for self-trust, clarity, and empowered decision-making. Frances explains how tarot doesn’t predict your future—it reflects what you already know and may be ignoring. Together, they explore how creating space, asking better questions, and learning to trust subtle inner signals can shift how you navigate decisions, career changes, and personal growth—reminding listeners that self-trust is a skill you can practice.


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In this episode you will learn about:

  • Tarot as a mirror for intuition rather than a tool for prediction.
  • Why intuition speaks quietly and how to make space to hear it.
  • How asking better questions leads to clearer, empowered decisions.
  • The difference between tarot and oracle cards—and how to use each.
  • Strengthening the intuition muscle through repeated daily decisions.


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Guest Bio:

Frances Naudé supports her global community through her work as a Tarot Card Reader, Tarot Card Deck Creator, Reiki Master, and Spiritual Mentor. Her keen ability to channel hyper-specific messages from Spirit has helped thousands of people co-create an aligned life of purpose, joy, and holistic wellbeing. The Soul Fam, as Frances so lovingly calls her clients, can choose to receive from one-on-one sessions (both remotely and in person), online courses, mentorship programs, the Four Noble Tarot Deck, or free virtual readings and healings on YouTube.

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Episode Transcript:

Frances Naudé 0:00  

Like, Oh, I pulled a tarot card today. It's like, the universe slapped me in the face. It is like really, it is kind of like that, because Tarot never really tells you anything new. It just echoes what you already know and maybe what you're ignoring.


Lesley Logan 0:14  

Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I'm Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I've trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self-doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it's the antidote to fear. Each week, my guest will bring bold, executable, intrinsic and targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It's a practice, not a perfect. Let's get started. 


Lesley Logan 0:53  

Be It babe, just having the best day recording for you. I just have to say this, like, it's been one of the most wonderful day recording. But I also just want to say, like, this is a topic that, like, I was like, oh, I wonder how we could talk about this on the Be It pod. And then it got to like, you know, I really am interested in this. And then also it became even more important as we got into this conversation. So Frances Naudé is our guest today, and we're going to talk tarot, and even if you think you don't need to know about tarot, that's not what this episode is about. This episode is about how can we trust ourselves more? Can't be it till you see it if you don't have trust in who you are. And we talked a little bit about confidence and just really understanding, like what, what is going on inside of ourselves? And I just think that this is the most informative episode when it comes to self-trust and confidence that I've had in a long, long time. And I really can't wait for you to hear it. And there's also a history of where tarot came from that blew my fucking mind. Blew it, blew it. So here is Frances Naudé. 


Lesley Logan 1:56  

Okay, Be It, babe. This, this topic I'm super excited about when one of our dear friends, friend of the pod, has been on the pod before, Kelly Hartling told me about this, when I was like, yeah, I am yes, how quickly can we get this person on? So this is the first time Frances Naudé and I are meeting, but this, this is something I'm very excited to talk about. So Frances, can you tell everyone who you are and what you rock at? 


Frances Naudé 2:19  

Yes. Hello. Thank you for having me. As you said, I am Frances. I am a Reiki Master, energy healer, a tarot card reader. I am the creator of the Four Noble tarot deck, and I am a spiritual channel and spiritual mentor. So essentially, my purpose, my sole purpose here, is to help people heal and align and live their most authentic and joyful lives, and I do that through energy healing, which also supports the physical body, as well as tarot card readings. And the way that I work with tarot is very much in the present moment, while you know, fortune telling may have its place for me, I believe in free will, and so I prefer to focus on empowering people, helping them understand their own intuition, what I call their spiritual team. So bringing in all the good beings that surround you all the time, and allowing allowing that messaging to come through and really up level your human form and your human life here that we chose to have. 


Lesley Logan 3:16  

Okay, so excited about this, because okay, so there's this person that I am. I have bought tarot decks. I don't really know what I'm doing with them, but I they're so beautiful, and they're so pretty and, like, I have friends like, oh, I drew a card today. I'm like, yeah, I'll do that. I'm gonna draw a card. And then I'm like, what does this card mean? I don't know what it means. All I know is it's either right side up or it's upside down. And then I'm like, okay, Google, watch us mean, and then it gives you a meaning. And I'm like, I do with that, though. So can you tell us a little about, can we go into that? Because I think, like, first of all, for the people are like, this is a double woo, LL, like, I'm not really sure. I don't call it a double woo anymore. I actually think it's another way, to me, I've seen people use it as like, not therapy, but a way to meditate, or way to explore, a way to understand themselves, or to ask themselves a different question for the day. So that's why I don't think it's a double woo. But what are we supposed to do with tarot?


Frances Naudé 4:13  

Yeah, so tarot, it does. I mean, you can work with it so many different ways. There are thousands of decks out there, and like, my number one thing is, if you want to work with tarot, use a deck that you like, not the deck that someone told you to use. Because your intuition, whether you are like, really great at listening to it and you totally understand it, or whether you're like, I don't, I kind of know, but, you know, I have a gut feeling, but I don't really work with it every day, it's still working right. So you are going to be drawn to a deck, whether it's the artwork, the colors, the whatever. And so work with that deck. Now your deck hopefully comes with a guidebook, and so with that, as you mentioned, or like Google, like, yeah, if you're Googling, that's great, you know, because tarot does require some study. You know, tarot cards, each one, there's 78 and each one has this specific definition from deck to deck, guidebook to guidebook, they will change a little bit, but they should have that like basic core every card means the same thing. Now, with my deck and the guidebook that I wrote, slash channeled, and when I say channel, if anyone is new here, this does sound very woo, but it is what I now super duper with all of me trust to be 100% true, and all of us can do this if we want to. We were designed as humans to do this. It's just we've been programmed to not but channeling is receiving from energy, God, universe, spirit, whatever it is that you believe in. So I channeled that and wrote the guidebook. And for me, as you said, sometimes you read it and you're like, okay, so what do I do? This guidebook and as well as many out there, I'm not just saying like, oh, buy mine, you know, they should hopefully be actionable as well. So this is how you're feeling, and here's what you can do with it. But there is also a way to rely on your intuition, right? So it's like, you pull a card and you're like, I don't know what this means. Let me look it up. And then maybe the death or the guidebook that you have says, you know, this means that you are overwhelmed, and you're like, well, duh, I'm overwhelmed. Then that could be a moment for you to check in and be like, okay, well, what's overwhelming me? What can I do about that? And so that's why it's really great. If you're newer to tarot, you know, to study the guidebook that you're working with, and also work with other people who can, like read for you, because they can kind of even just getting a reading one time. They can show you how to, sort of like work with the information that you're given. But tarot, it's a tool that's ultimately the way that I use it, at least it's a tool to gain information about myself through my own intuition from, again, what I call spiritual teams. Or it's just, like, as much as I really believe in the sacred nature of it, it's really fun. You know, people hire me for events all the time, and like, well, like, I'm the party trick, you know, and it's like a fun thing to do, but I really do believe that it is so informative if you allow it to be, and it really can be whatever you want it to be, it's like meditation, right? If you want to meditate and have some really big, profound experience, that's what it's going to be for you. Or if you want to do a one minute visualization, that's what it's going to be for you. It doesn't really matter what you're doing, it's how it's serving you and how you're working with it, and what you're receiving from it.


Lesley Logan 7:25  

Yeah, because the way you're describing it, too, is it's almost like, instead of like, letting the card tell you how you're feeling or what you should be doing, it's a, it's a, it's asking you, ideally, to go within and explore. What does that mean, and where is this coming from, and what, what does it mean for me? So you, you're not going, oh, I have to follow this card, because that's what it says today. And instead, it's like to follow myself. And what is this card kind of asking me to focus on today, because there's so many different things we could focus on in the world at one given time. So, like, it's kind of giving you a thing to think about.


Frances Naudé 7:57  

Exactly and it's funny too. Like, if you get on, you know, like the tarot side of Instagram, or TikTok or whatever it is, there's these memes, and it'll be like, you know, even in comparison to oracle cards. So if anyone listening is like, well, wait, I have an Oracle Card Deck. What's the difference between Oracle and tarot? Okay, very briefly, tarot again, 78 cards. There's always going to be 78 cards, and every card should have a similar meaning between decks Oracle, fair game and typically, Oracle cards are also channeled by the author, but they're a little bit softer and lighter. Oracle cards are very actionable. That was actually my inspiration when writing my guidebook was like, exactly what you said, What do I do? So I wrote it similar to an Oracle Card guidebook rooted in tarot, so it was very actionable. But going back to the meme having that differentiation, the Oracle card, it'll be like, oh, I pulled an Oracle card today, and it's like, universe gave me a hug, and then it's like, oh, I pulled a tarot card today. It's like, universe slapped me in the face. Really, it is kind of like that, because Tarot never really tells you anything new, it just echoes what you already know and maybe what you're ignoring. A lot of times, when I do readings for people, you know they're like, I knew that. And I'm like, I know you did. You just needed a complete stranger who knows nothing about your life to tell you that you can trust yourself. And my favorite thing ever, as much as I love my clients, is when I don't see them for a while because I'm like, you're doing it. You are doing the thing, right? It's like, when you graduate from therapy and your therapist is like, you can come once every three months now, or whenever you feel like it, instead of weekly, like you've learned the tools. So it does provide information in terms of, like, if I ask, you know, what's the energy of the situation, or should I take this path or this path? Though spirit will never give you a clear answer. It's always going to be your choice, but they can kind of show you, like the energy of this decision A versus decision B, and then it's like, okay, so what do you want with that? Um, so ultimately, yeah, it's information, at least the way that I work with it. And again, there are many ways to work with it, but for me, it really is all about empowerment and helping people be able to, like, navigate their own inner world and inner wisdom and then apply that forward.


Lesley Logan 10:14  

Okay, so excited. Okay, so I guess two, two questions. And I hate when I do two at the same time, but I'm gonna do it. One, where did tarot come from? And two, how did you get into it? Because if you're so passionate about it. Like, clearly, like it, there's some, there's something there, so, but I do, like, you know, like, I know Joe Pilates created Pilates. Like, who is Mr. Taro, or Mrs. Taro, or they tarot. Like, where did it come from?


Frances Naudé 10:38  

Yes, okay, so many origin stories of tarot, but what I have learned, and what I teach to my students, is that tarot actually originated, oh, I can't say originated, but very early on, was used in the church. Tarot was also a game. So tarot cards, it was like the game Tarot. I have no idea how that game works. It is a game. And then people started receiving, like, the same information through the imagery, and then started using it. I don't love this word, but like the occult, if you've ever seen that, to me, that feels like, really, like heavy in a way, but that is the history of it. And then it was often adopted by the church. But what I understand from this is that people were playing tarot, using tarot, and when the printing press was invented, it became really widely spread, right? So in the tarot deck, there, this will make sense why I'm saying this in a second, in the tarot deck, there are five suits, so the first four we call the Minor Arcana. And those resemble a playing card deck, right? So diamonds, clubs, hearts and spades, we have swords, pentacles, cups and wands. Then we have the fifth suit, which is the Major Arcana. The Major Arcana are like names, so it's like The Moon, The Hermit, The Empress, like they are themes. And back in the day, many people would have artists, so wealthy people who could afford to hire an artist, would have like images drawn for their major suit, for their major death, right? But if you wanted a tarot deck, you had to commission it. You had to find an artist who could do the drive. So then come the printing press. We didn't have to do that anymore, right? So decks were more readily available, which means that this tool was more readily available. The Church didn't like that, because it was putting power in the hands of the people instead of going to whatever your religious leader was. And so they took it back and they demonized it, right? Like many organized religions, tarot is evil, tarot is paganism. Tarot is.


Lesley Logan 12:51  

Oh I was raised with that. It was terrible, terrible, yeah. 


Frances Naudé 12:51  

Totally, when I do events, people look at me and like, some people are like, oh, I'm so excited. And some people are like, and they like, walk away.


Lesley Logan 12:59  

I'm going straight to hell. It's happening. 


Frances Naudé 13:03  

Yeah, I'm like, I swear I'm normal, and this is fun. But so that is, like one of the, or two of the origins, well, I guess, like a one very convoluted world of tarot, um, and then over time, obviously, you know, people were still practicing it. It was just seen. It was, it was the church was successful, because if you had tarot cards, you were going against the church, right? So it became this, like, kind of dark thing. And then we had the original tarot deck, which is the Rider-Waite Tarot Deck. This is still widely available. Obviously, it's been like, modernized and the colors have popped, but I think it's like, like, you can get it on Amazon or bookstores or anything like that. And if anyone is looking for it, it's R-I-D-E-R dash W-A-I-T-E and I will say, if you are learning tarot to become you know, like a seasoned professional, I would recommend starting with that deck. The imagery in that deck is super, super, like every single little image represents something. So if you want to really, like deep dive into tarot study Rider-Waite and then you can start using whatever deck you want. But that's like the OG deck, okay? And then how I began working with tarot. Honestly, it's like, so I don't remember exactly, you know, it's kind of like, it's, it's foggy when you look back, because you pick something up and you're like, this is never gonna like, this isn't anything. This is just a fun thing. And then you're like, oh, this is my job now. But I started, so I started with energy work. Well, I started with, well, I started in corporate, then I was deeply unhappy. So I started taking night classes, and I got my health coach certification, and that was like, closer to the thing. Whatever the thing was, it was closer, but it wasn't quite it. Then I did my yoga teacher certification. I'd always been a dancer, and I was like, I love, you know, the body and all of that. I'm going to do yoga thinking it was more exercise. But then my favorite part of yoga teacher training was the philosophical side of it, and you're learning all the yogic principles and all of that, and that really led me down the path of energy. So then I started studying Reiki, and then from Reiki, I started studying tarot. And I was, like, such a dork. I like, printed out every single description, and like, studied and was highlighting and all of it. And now I'm, like, actually so grateful for my past self for doing that. Because now, if someone were like, you need to study the definitions of 78 tarot cards, I'd be like, there's just no, I don't have time for that. But at the time, it was like, I was like, eating it up, like anything that I could get. And then, yeah, I just started taking clients, not ever thinking it would be anything. And I was working multiple jobs at a time, and because I eventually left corporate, and then I was had a bunch of side gigs, and also doing, you know, Reiki and tarot. And then one day, I was like, oh, my God. Why am I so overwhelmed? Like, why am I so tired? I was like, oh, because you're doing, like, seven things and I was so blessed that I was able to finally build up my clientele where I could let those other pieces go. And it was such a dream come true. I couldn't believe that this was like my full time gig after many, many, many years, but it was, yeah.


Lesley Logan 16:13  

I love I love that it was a nonlinear way for you. Because I do think everyone has to hear that, whether you're into the tarot part of the story or not. Like, just knowing that we all end up somewhere where we think it's supposed to be because of what we were told, which, you know, as you start to the more you start to hear stories of what like we're told is going to make us happy. And then then you hear, like, just the things that, like, some things were available, and then someone decided that they're not available anymore. And like, you know, like you start to realize, like, oh, it's not bad that you started in corporate, because it led you to where you are, and it allows you to recognize people, and also some people will always be in corporate, and that's fine. There's nothing wrong with it. But like, no one's journey to figuring out what they want to be and what they're really called to do is linear. It happens to be like, oh, what's down this door? Oh, I really am interested in that. Hold on, what's this over here? And I just think that that's so fascinating. Okay, so I love that you said, like, if I started to pick up trying to learn 78 decks, 78 cards, right now, I probably wouldn't. I'm like, right here going, how long would it take me to learn 70? Because it's actually quite funny, because I teach Pilates teachers every year I work with Pilates teachers who already be teaching, but I'll teach them over 500 exercises every year, right and, and I don't think I quite understood, like, what I was embarking on when I became a Pilates instructor. And I think today, like, wow, could I learn 500 right now? Like, learn them the way I learned them? But if somebody does want to pick this up as a hobby or just something that they're like, wanting to explore more. Obviously, you gave us that original deck that could be a great one. And also, like what your intuition is like, you know what you like, but what do you do? Do you draw one a day? Do you do it when you meditate? Do you do it when you need it? Like, how do you use it? 


Frances Naudé 17:54  

Yeah, so for someone who wants, like, daily use for themselves, I would say, just do it when you feel called. I love pulling a card a day. It's a great way to get acquainted with the deck. You can read from the guidebook. You can Google like you're learning as you go, right? Because that that's the whole point. And even if you don't memorize it, that's okay, you're still receiving the information. So I think one a day is awesome if you have a meditation practice or you want to create one, you can add that in so like pull a card, see what it says. Meditate for five minutes, what's coming through for you? You know what? What did you receive from that 10 minute practice? That's what I love about tarot is especially for people who have limited time, whether you have kids or you have a demanding job, or you struggle to focus for a while, or whatever it is, it's so tangible that you can actually, like, take it in these bite sized pieces, and then maybe one day, you're like, I want to pull three cards, or I want to pull 10 cards. So that's option one is kind of just pulling to see what comes through. The other is, if you're in an area where or a time in life, we're like, I need guidance, like, I need some info. I need some some clarity. That's a great time to pull tarot, right? And you can literally ask the cards your question. Now I hesitate with yes no's, so reframing your questions is important. So for example, let's say it's like, should I take this job? Yes or no? maybe I would change it to, what is the energy of taking this job, pull a card. What is the energy of rejecting this job? Pull a card, and you can see energetically which one is lighter. If you get two cards that are light, that's universe being like both both options are a great choice for you, and it's just gonna lead down a different path. You know, that's something I've learned in this work, is if you are being presented with options, there's no right or wrong choice, there's just different paths. And so this is about really like listening to what path you want, right? Maybe, like, option one, the card that you get is, like, you know, I don't know, very warm, like the Sun card, right? That's warmth, that's growth. It's, you know, it feel, it feels like summer, so there's a lot of energy in it that. But maybe, and then maybe the other card is a little bit more money focused, right? Like, 10 of pentacles, that's money, that's family, right? So you're like, oh, I can have abundance and a family. I want that. But then if you're someone who's like, I want to be a CEO, maybe you run down, you go down that Sun path, right? So it's, it's highlighting options for you. So I think number one, to answer your question, it's, yeah, a daily practice pulling a card. That's great. You'll learn as you go. Number two, ask them questions. If you have them, one of my favorite questions, which is still very broad, and this is always how I start my personal readings for myself, is, what do I need to know right now? Like, what do you what do you want to tell me right now? What do I need to know right now? If I have specific questions, I'll ask them. But usually the what do I need to know right now is pretty like they will point out your stressors, or, you know, where you're feeling lack of clarity, or whatever it may be. And then I think for people who want to, like, really dive in, there just is no other way but to study like you just you got to study, and you have to practice, practice with yourself. But the best way to learn to read tarot cards is to actually practice on other people, because that pressure of like, oh my god, someone's waiting for me to tell them something. It's forcing you to get out of your own way. It's forcing you to shut that brain off and just dive in. I imagine it's like teaching your first Pilates class where you're standing out there and you're like, oh my god, oh my god. There are all of these people staring at me, waiting for me to tell them what to do like I just got to go that's similar with tarot. And once you do like those first five to 10, you learn to trust yourself, and then it makes reading cards for yourself a lot easier. I always like to tell people reading cards for yourself in the beginning is way harder than reading for other people. So if you really want to start like developing this practice, do it for other people and trust yourself. And then final piece, final tip for if you're learning cards, is find a deck whose imagery speaks to you because the imagery is informative of the message. So I'll show you an example, or I'll give an example here. Let's say, okay, this card, I'll describe it. This is 10 of swords. Okay, so it's this woman sitting on a tombstone. I know it sounds really intense, but there's ivy growing all over it. There's the 10 swords, which is representative, you know, of of the of the card. And then there's a moon there. And this card is all about completion, right? This is about ending of cycles. This is about death, right? And not physical death, but, you know, the death of something. And so if I were brand new to tarot and I looked at this card, I would probably be like, oh, okay, that's a tombstone. So she's alive, though something changed. She's like, you know, I would get something from this. So that's a really beautiful way to learn with tarot, is like, reading from the imagery itself, and then, like, really trusting yourself. That was a lot of insight, sorry.


Lesley Logan 23:13  

Frances, you're, it's so fun because, like, it's all the questions, like you're answering questions I didn't even know I had, but also the overarching theme I'm getting from all of this, and I think that, like, it's so funny, I kind of feel like I was, like, part of my life was stolen from me by being told that tarot was, like, paganism is that like, it continues to ask you to trust what's coming up for you? Like, even, you know, like, even if you're reading for a friend, you're asking them the question. It's like, you know, like it's, you're looking at the card, but you're asking them the question, like, oh, something's coming to a completion. Like, it's not, it's, it's not someone else telling you something, it's asking to go within. And I think, like in today's world, with everything that's going on, there's so many things asking us to focus on all this other stuff that we're not, very few people are focusing on themselves and how they actually feel and what their energy is. And so having a practice, even if it's once a week or once a day, to like, go, what is this telling me right now? Oh, this is about overwhelm, or this is about abundance. Oh, I do have a lot in my life right now, like just having that moment to check in and with ourselves, like some of us need that physical thing to do that.


Frances Naudé 24:25  

Yeah, 100% that's that's what I do. Like again, when I don't see clients, I'm like, oh my god, I miss them, but I'm so happy because that means that they've been able to trust themselves intuition or gut feelings or inner wisdom, whatever it is that you want to call it for yourself, it is so silenced by noise. And so social media, TV, like, how many as we wake up, we roll over. Instagram, yeah, we wake up, we roll over, put on the news. We wake up like, you know, we just like, get in this cycle. And so, as you said, yeah, this. 510, minutes. Sometimes you don't even need to pull the card. It's literally just the sitting down. It's like, oh, I've given myself this 5, 10, 20, 30 minutes of space. Like, what's coming up in here? And it is, and it's, it's, but this is the thing, because you said this, and I'm going to highlight it, it's listening. But the key point is trusting and learning how to trust your intuition is, in my opinion, like the secret sauce to life, because if we, it sends us down some wild path sometimes, like the scariest ones, the riskiest ones, but it's always the ones who, where you're like, yeah, this is it. And it lights you up. And even going back to, like, what you said with, you know, like, if I were to go back and teach five or learn 500 things, like, think about yourself at that time, me too. Like, learning the tarot, it's like, oh my god. Like I was so jazzed to learn that, like, I couldn't wait to, and now it's become a part of you. So there's that integration, but that lighting up like, that is your intuition talking, even though it's probably a little scary too, it's like, that is, it's never gonna steer you down the wrong path. 


Lesley Logan 26:15  

Yeah. But also, like, how, like, you just said, like, it's trusting your intuition. Like, by the way, if, you're unstoppable, if you can trust yourself. And that's like, now, like, I have so many different thoughts and like about like, of course, people don't want us doing that. They because then we don't listen to them. We don't listen to what they think that we should be buying or or believing or doing, you know, because otherwise you are, you're following someone else's path versus the one that's your own. Oh, this is deep, okay, I do want to ask you this. It's been on my heart this whole show, because it's like, it's be it till you see it. And part of that is like acting like the person that you want to be and becoming that person, all that stuff. But along the way, there are some certain people's paths of being until you see it, that could get some interesting eyes. I cannot imagine that you would tell people at a family reunion, I'm becoming a tarot reader, and people don't go, what? Like was it, was your family like, yeah, you do you, babe. Or were people like, are you okay? Are you sure? Like.


Frances Naudé 27:17  

Yeah. So, oh, the things I've had said to me or about me, those are the funniest ones where I'm like, okay, I had friends parents call them, like, is Frances, okay? You know? Because, like, sometimes I would channel live on Instagram, and people would be like, like, has she gone off the deep end? Like, are we good here? I've had a lot of people. The ones that hurt me the most were actually friends, or like people in our friend group, I say, I mean, my husband, it was mostly his friends. So I shouldn't care, because as much as I love anyone of any gender or or no gender, I really don't care what a 25 year old dude thinks about me, but it still hurt. And what it showed me was like, I guess, like my own fears and like my own (, because I had a lot of those specific people be like, honestly, telling me I was ripping people off, like having people pay money for a placebo effect and like that just like, broke my heart because I was like, I, this is life changing. Like, this helps people. And fine, you don't have to be the person that it helps. I'm not going to ever force anyone, but don't, like, bash it till you've tried it, essentially. So those ones really hurt. The Frances, you're crazy. I would just kind of laugh along and be like, yeah, for sure. You know, like, my first disclaimer when I tell people what I do is, I promise I'm normal. Because you tell somebody you're a tarot card reader or you're a Reiki healer and you work within people's energy, they're like, that's not a thing. And I'm like, I understand that it's hard to understand, but it is. But my family, specifically, you know, my mom was always super supportive. She went on a very long, like, religious and spiritual journey throughout her whole life. She and I are pretty aligned on our beliefs. I wasn't raised with this, but it's funny. In retrospect, I look back and I actually think my grandmother, she never really talked about it, but she always had crystals, and was, like, really educated, and love reading books about philosophy and the brain, and so I think now I wish, and I have a great relationship with her, you know, on the other side, and it's, it's lovely, but I do sometimes wish that I could be an adult with her still outside, so I could, like, have these conversations with her. I'm sure some of them would be like, Frances, no, and then some of them would be really interesting. My dad was the funniest one because he he never was not supportive for him. It was more, am I going to be okay financially, like, business-wise, right? Like, am I am I okay? But now he'll kind of ask me questions about little things, or if he has, like, a minor injury or something he'd like, can you give Reiki, and then he'll, like, go tell all of his friends that his knee feels better or something. And, you know, it's and like, even my husband, he's funny too, with it. Like, I know they kind of believe it. They just don't, I know they believe it. They just don't want to admit they believe it. But like, before, when he was still growing in his career, anytime he had an interview or something, he'd be like, can you can you give me Reiki like the night before? And so I know that they feel it and they receive from it, or with tarot, even, like I read my husband's cards every once in a while, or even, you know, it's funny, my tarot cards have told me twice that I was pregnant and they were right both times, you know. So even for our family, and family planning like that has been really cool. So I think the more people receive from it themselves, the more that they understand it. But I definitely get a lot of looks and a lot of words, and I've learned to let it roll off, but it's part of it's part of it. When you do something different. I'm sure you've experienced that, too. 


Lesley Logan 30:59  

Oh, I mean, 100% and I think, like, the interesting thing about what you said is, like, the things that sting are the things that you kind of have a worry of, like, are people going to think this, right? And of course, then that's the criticism that you hear the loudest, even if it was from the people who are the quietest voices in your life. Like, if they were to say, you have nice hair, you probably wouldn't even remember, like, it'd be, you know what I mean, if it was a compliment, because it's like, oh, okay, that's, you know, like, it's not like that you don't listen to them, but they don't act. Their opinion doesn't really mean anything. But when they say the thing that you are like, internally worried that people would think about you, that's where we can get hung up. But it also sounds like, you know, in being it till we see it, and whatever our dream is when we do something that is outside of society's norms of what our career should be, you kind of just have to believe in yourself and like, trust that as people see the results of it, whether it's in what people you're doing with other people or themselves, that they kind of buy in. And you have to, you can't wait for them to you have to do it. You have to keep going and showing them this is what it is, and believing in yourself to make it happen. Yes, no, I have a as a Pilates instructor. I do travel the world, which doesn't make sense, because people literally on a plane, they're like, What are you doing? Like, oh, I'm gonna go to Poland for the weekend. And they're like, to do what? Like, I have to teach. And they're like, teach about like, it's just not gonna make any sense. I'm gonna teach Pilates. And they're like, don't they have Pilates in Poland, I'm like, correct, which is why I'm yes, I I don't know how to explain to you that I have this weird role in the industry, because it doesn't make sense to people, but also, like, it's why we do what we do. It's not because it's weird, but it's because we're so called to do it, and people want to be around that. And so it's just really cool. Thank you for sharing all the different parts of that story, because I do think it can be hard to change the career, to do the thing like, to go from the stable corporate job to like, yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna change people's energies for a living. Like that can make people go, oh, okay. Are you okay? Are you okay? But we have to, we have to be okay with it is the ultimate thing, because other you can't otherwise, you're not going to make it. You know, I firmly believe that, like neither one of us would be here if we had actually waited for other people to deem us sane. It's a good idea. 


Frances Naudé 33:15  

100% and it's one of those things too. I mean, even going back to everything, you say, be it till you see it, see it. It's like, it's not that you're in the beginning, especially and even now. Like, there's times I'm like, what am I what am I doing? Like, what do I do? Like, what am I doing? Okay, I guess I'm doing like, it's it has been almost a decade, but it's like, it's not that you have the confidence, it's that you trust so deeply that what you're doing is what you're supposed to be doing, that you do it scared anyways, and that builds the confidence, right? It's like, okay, well, yes, that was a good class, or that was a good day, or that was an amazing session, or this person told me for the first time, or they told me that this was the first time they've ever felt seen or understood by anyone. And I'm like, the first time in your sometimes, what, 72 years like, I work with people of all ages that you felt seen like that? It's not for me. It's like, wait, I think I'm I think I'm helping people. I think maybe I can do this. And it's not that I, you know, you go into that that session being like, yes, I'm fantastic. You know, you hope that you you gain that confidence along the way, but it really is about like doing it scared because everyone is gonna problem. Most people will tell you not to, and even the people that are encouraging. You can feel their doubt. You know, you can feel that they're like, I hope this works for you, not you got this. You can do this. So it's like, you have to be that for yourself, right? And I remember too for me, I was like, well, this is either going to happen or it's not. But it's either going to not today, or it's going to not ever, and it is going to happen at some point, but those are the only two options. So I'm either going to choose that it's not or I'm going to keep walking this path, hoping and encouraging myself and showing up for myself and these people and making it happen. And if universe comes in the way and stops me and I fall on my butt. Okay. It wasn't supposed to happen, but I would rather it's kind of like I better to have loved and lost than never to have lost at all and then never to have loved at all. Yeah, right, like I'm rather going to go down this path. Then maybe the reason I not do it because I listen to all of these people and all of these old stories and everything else, like, makes no sense. And this is also what I've learned through channeling. God is literally begging you to just listen to yourself, to just do the thing that's like one of the main sole reasons that are that we choose to, if you believe in this, that you choose to incarnate in human form, is to get to do stuff, spirit, doesn't we I mean, I'm sure it does. I know that it does things, but it doesn't have this vessel. We don't get to be on this amazing, beautiful planet, connecting with other people like we chose to be here, and that was always a driving factor to me, is, like you chose to be here, what are you going to do with this life? Are you really going to waste it doing something that you didn't want to do, you know. 


Lesley Logan 36:24  

And like, you just, what it brought up for me is, like, better to have loved than than and lost and never have loved at all. Better to go down the path. And why do we consider it a failure, right? Unless, instead of like, oh, it actually led you to this. Like, if you hadn't gone to corporate, you wouldn't have been interested in health coaching, because you're like, I hate this. And then with health coaching, you're like, oh, I really like this yoga. And I didn't hear you once say, well, I failed as a yogi, but I really like the philosophy. I didn't hear that at all. I heard you say that led me to this, and this led me to this. And I think it's a way of us reframing, like, what is failure as a instead of like, what is it actually guiding us towards? Everything we do, everything we learn from it, is guiding us to the next thing, and it's giving us the knowledge we need to do whatever we're supposed to be doing, you know, like, so, I mean, I just think that that's just a takeaway from your story is, like, really, truly, how can we, how can we actually just reframe that everything is just part of the path. It's all part of the journey. 


Frances Naudé 37:16  

Stepping stones, and even using that, like, applying that forward, like, if you look back at your life, you like, if people are in a state of feeling stuck or lost or confused, it's like, okay, well, what can I learn like if I look backwards, what are the things like okay this led me to. This led me to. This led me to this. Was I operating from a place of excitement, or was I operating from a place of fear or escapism, trying to get out of something, right? And so it's like, I work with so many people who have regret, and they're like, why didn't I do this? Or I feel so lost, or I don't know. It's like, let's not, you know, bash yourself for any past decisions. Let's learn from them. Exactly as you said, it's like, I literally see it in my mind's eye as stairs like you want to stay on this stair. This isn't the destination. It's up there. So we have to go, and it's going to be hard and we're going to get tired, but, like, really using it as a tool to learn from whatever it is that you've experienced.


Lesley Logan 38:14  

Yeah, oh my god, this conversation has been so fun. I'm just so grateful that we connected. Like, I've I really have wanted to, like, have this as a topic and as more personal, but also, like, I feel like, even though the the topic is tarot, the true actual thing is, like trusting yourself, just like just trusting yourself. And if we can do that, we can, we can be it till we see it on anything. Frances, I could talk to you forever but I want to take a brief break and then find out how people can find you, follow you, and work with you. 


Lesley Logan 38:42  

Okay, Frances, where do you hang out? Where can we send people? They're ready to nerd out. They want, they want to understand how to trust themselves. Where they where can they go? 


Frances Naudé 38:52  

So I'm on Instagram and Tiktok and YouTube and all the places it's @FrancesNaude, F-R-A-N-C-E-S-N-A-U-D-E and francesnaude.com is my website. I do sessions for people all over the world remotely, and I also have a small studio space in Orange County, California. So if you are nearby, hit me up and we can meet in person. But yeah, in the in the online space, I do free tarot card readings every Monday on YouTube and share all kinds of stuff on Instagram and trying to get on TikTok. But I'm not gonna lie, I am definitely a millennial, so.


Lesley Logan 39:30  

I see you. I feel you. The girl I just interviewed before this. She's like, I post on there, but don't DM or comment. I won't respond. And I was like, yeah, my team keeps threatening to do it. And I was like, I just can't, like, there's just I can't do it. YouTube and Instagram are enough, and maybe one is a dying breed, and it's I'm okay, but my people are there because they don't want to do it. You know, so I feel you, millennials unite. Okay. You've given us so much already, but bold, executable, intrinsic or targeted steps people can take to be it to be it till they see it. What do you have for us? 


Frances Naudé 40:00  

As mentioned, learn how to hear and trust your intuition that is going to be that is going to lead you down the best path in any way, if you're in a challenging situation, if you are feeling inspired do that. And so may I give a brief practice for how to do that, because. 


Lesley Logan 40:02  

I would love one, because there are perfectionists listening and they would like the step by step plan, please.


Frances Naudé 40:25  

Okay, amazing, amazing, amazing. So, yeah, someone telling you, trust your intuition is like someone saying, just be positive, right? It Like It's, it's a great piece of guidance. But how do we do that? So my practice is choose something that you do every single day that's a decision. Okay? So whether it is picking out like, let's say you love a certain flavor of tea, and every morning you like to make your tea, you're going to pick your tea bag, right? They're all the same. What tea bag? What is the tea bag that you're choosing? And then pause once you grabbed it and check in with your body. What does that feel like in your body? You can do this at the grocery store, right? You need, I don't know, five oranges and there's 100 in front of you, right? Which are the five that you're picking? Logic is going to come in a little bit. Maybe that one, the skin is broken, or that one's dirty, or whatever. But between 10 perfect oranges and you're only buying five, when you grab the orange that feels right to you, stop for a second. What does that feel like in your body? What does that feel like in your energy? What does that feel like in your head? Start to practice. I actually practice this with my underwear when I'm choosing my underwear every day, because I know that it's something that I'm going to be doing every single day. What is the underwear? And it's so funny, sometimes I'll touch this black pair and it's not the right one. And so I touch the other black pair. I'm like, yeah, this is the one. There is no I'm like, fathomable reason why the underwear is the right underwear. They're the exact same. But that is my daily practice, because then, when it comes to big decisions, you've already built that muscle. You already know how to use it. You already know how to trust it. Your intuition often will not make logical sense and it will not be loud. People always expect these really big like moments or like the clouds part and the sun shines through. Intuition is really quiet. So step three is, or item number three with that is, it's going to be quiet, but now it's, we have to make space for it. That is the piece to be able to hear it, right? It's, it's so important. So even going back to tarot or meditation or walking outside, or whatever it is, you have to make space to hear your intuition, because, again, building that muscle. When things are loud, you want to already have it built right? It's kind of like. 


Lesley Logan 42:55  

Yeah, I hear you. It's just like it when, when there's so much noise around you, if you aren't attuned to that quiet voice, you're not going to hear it. You have to like, yeah, yeah. That makes so much sense to me. And you are correct. I can think of two times three actually. Now I think three times my life where I heard that intuition, and it is so, so quiet, so quiet. And if you aren't you might could miss it. You can go, what is that? You know?


Frances Naudé 43:23  

And it also feels, I also like to tell people, your intuition often feels like a thought, but how to be able to differentiate it is, you'll be like, either, yes, it'll be very quiet, or you'll be like, where did that come from? Like, why was I thinking that, right? Oh, and I was saying, like, intuition often leads you down the scary path. Yeah, you know that that the because, it has to. It's expanding that comfort zone. It's getting that wider. It's also going to challenge your beliefs, your old stories that were probably not even written by you, and your fears, right? It's expanding you wider. It's getting you out of that comfort zone. And so as you are learning to work with your intuition, I also encourage you to learn you can choose the word that fits for you. I call it your highest self, but this could be your true self. This could be your soul self, whatever the word is for you, the place that exists without ego. And when I say ego, I mean the human brain, so fears, worries, anxieties, etc. And without we talked about this a lot, without the other, so, other people's stories, other people's fears. A lot of us have other people's fears, specifically our family members, going back, sometimes generations. We don't even know we have them. I work a lot with this in Reiki, where they're not ours. It doesn't even apply to us in our in our situation, but we've been conditioned so making sure that you know who that highest self is, that soul self is. I am Frances, and I, you know we're talking in present tense so I live an intuitively aligned life, which means I let joy lead I do not let fear get in my way, and I live in unity with all that's around me, right? And so if I can identify those three pillars to what my soul self is, every decision I make should be aligned with those three things, and then combine it with that intuitive strength, you're just walking that aligned path like no matter what, it's going to be scary, there's going to be challenges. We're still human. But that is truly like, what I've learned through my personal practice, through working with other people, is that key. So, if nothing else, learn how, like, start developing that intuitive muscle, because it is imperative for daily decisions, and also those, those big ones when they come.


Lesley Logan 45:52  

Yeah, oh gosh, so good. You're so good. Frances, thank you so much. I can not only imagine, like, how many people down the road are like, thank God I heard that, because I can now say that you trust yourself, and I think that's one of the biggest gifts we can give people today. So thank you for being here and sharing all this with us. Guys, how are you going to use these tips in your life? Make sure you tag Frances. Tag the Be It Pod, share this with a friend who needs to hear it. I want to know. I definitely want to know what your takeaways are I'm just so grateful for this connection and you guys until next time, Be It Till You See It. 


Lesley Logan 46:22  

That's all I got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It Podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate the show and leave a review and follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to your podcast. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over at the Be It Pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us and others Be It Till You See It. Have an awesome day. Be It Till You See It is a production of The Bloom Podcast Network. If you want to leave us a message or a question that we might read on another episode, you can text us at +1-310-905-5534 or send a DM on Instagram @BeItPod.


Brad Crowell 47:04  

It's written, filmed, and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan, and me, Brad Crowell.


Lesley Logan 47:10  

It is transcribed, produced and edited by the epic team at Disenyo.co.


Brad Crowell 47:14  

Our theme music is by Ali at Apex Production Music and our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi.


Lesley Logan 47:21  

Special thanks to Melissa Solomon for creating our visuals.


Brad Crowell 47:24  

Also to Angelina Herico for adding all of our content to our website. And finally to Meridith Root for keeping us all on point and on time.



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