Gregg Lunceford, Managing Director at Mesirow Wealth Management and a retirement transition researcher, joins Lesley Logan to explore why retirement is about more than financial planning. He introduces the concept of the “third age”—a longer, undefined stage of life where identity, purpose, and structure matter just as much as money.

Together, they discuss why work identity is so hard to release and how shaping your retirement identity early can make your next chapter feel intentional instead of uncertain.

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In this episode you will learn about:

Why modern retirees now face a long “third age” requiring purpose beyond leisure.
How work identity provides recognition, social connection, and daily structure.
The difference between living as your “ought self” versus your “ideal self.”
Why failing to plan identity often leads retirees to burn through money.
Why creating a shared retirement vision helps guide future decisions together.

Episode References/Links:

Mesirow Wealth Management - https://www.mesirow.com
Gregg Lunceford on LinkedIn - https://beitpod.com/gregglunceford
Exit From Work by Gregg Lunceford - https://a.co/d/c84euxX
The Psychology of Money by Morgan Housel - https://a.co/d/feJq9lh

Guest Bio:

Gregg Lunceford has 32 years of experience in financial services. He is a Managing Director, Wealth Advisor in Mesirow Wealth Management and Vice Chair of the Mesirow DEI Council. He creates comprehensive financial planning strategies for individuals, families, organizations, athletes and business owners. He is the Investment Committee Chair for the American Heart Association, on the Board of Directors for the Juvenile Protective Association, an Advisory Board Member for the Nathan Manilow Sculpture Park at Governors State University and is an Advisory Board Member for the Quinlan School of Business at Loyola University. Gregg is also a frequent speaker on WGN radio’s “Your Money Matters.” Gregg earned a B.A. from Loyola University, an MBA from Washington University, and a PhD from Case Western Reserve University where he conducted research on retirement. He is a CERTIFIED FINANCIAL PLANNER® professional and holds a Certificate in Financial Planning Studies from Northwestern University.

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Episode Transcript:

Gregg Lunceford 0:00

What we all need to start to focus on right now is just like we had that career guidance counselor helping us and coaching us and to that next thing, we need to start taking time to figure out that action plan for that next thing. And once you start to figure out, I need to form a retirement identity and understand my ideal self. You start to self motivate and become excited about it.

Lesley Logan 0:27

Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I'm Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I've trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self-doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it's the antidote to fear. Each week, my guest will bring bold, executable, intrinsic and targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It's a practice, not a perfect. Let's get started.

Lesley Logan 1:10

Okay, Be It babe. This conversation is really cool. It's really, really cool. It might you I'm going to introduce it in just a second, I'm going to introduce the guest, and it might be somebody like when you think about this, you yes, you do. Yes, you do. And I actually am really excited once I hit in on this, because Brad and I have already talked about this topic with each other, but I we've actually not dove into what retirement looks like, right? Like? What does it look like? Who are we, you know. And I think especially if you're an elder like me, you're like, I'm still trying to figure that out for my work stuff, but, but there's, there's an even bigger reason for us to think about it now, and Gregg Lunceford is going to explain that to us, and it's going to give you so much inspiration and a joy and excitement and possibility. And I can't think of a better be it till you see it, thing that be working on than what Greg is going to offer us up today. So here he is.

Lesley Logan 2:04

All right, Be It babe, I'm really excited, because when I met this guest, I was like, hold on, this is very different. This is a whole different attitude to have about. Fine, we're going to talk money. And I know some of you want to, like, put your head in the sand and ostrich out, but we're gonna talk retirement. We're gonna talk about some really cool things, also just thought processes to have. We have an amazing guest, the first person ever make me think of this in a different way. Gregg Lunceford from Mesirow, is here to rock our world today. So Greg, tell everyone who you are and what you do.

Gregg Lunceford 2:34

Hello, Lesley, thank you so much for the opportunity to be on your show. My name is Gregg Lunceford. I am a career professional in financial services. I work for a firm called Mesirow Financial in Chicago. We have locations across the country and some overseas. I am a wealth advisor. In addition to that, I am also an academic researcher, and my field of study is retirement transition. And so what I work with clients on is getting them, not only do you understand the financial part of retirement, but also the social, emotional components of making the transition and how it is unique to them, because the 21st Century retiree retirement transition is much different and way more dynamic than most people think, having watched others do it in the 20th century.

Lesley Logan 3:21

This is so cool, because you're not, like, our, you know, our grandfather or father is like, like, financial planner, you are actually thinking, like, deep about the person. And that I find, I don't think I've known anyone who does that. Like, usually it's like, here are the numbers, here's your sheet. Let's put this in. How much money do you want to have and like, that's it, but you you've brought more personality to it and also more emotions to it. How did you get started in that?

Gregg Lunceford 3:47

So I'll give you a little bit of a backstory. So as I mentioned, I've been in financial services for 33 years, and when the real estate bust occurred in 2008 I was working for another organization, and we were having people come in and very successful people, and they were set for life. They were being offered an exit package from their from their employer. They were leaving a lot of C suite roles, or maybe a little role below the C suite. And we were having meetings with them to prepare for retirement, and we would go through all the financial numbers and something still wasn't right. And what I was noticing was they were hesitant to make the retirement decision, even though the company was saying, look, we, giving you this excellent opportunity to exit early create cost savings for us. It'll create great financial opportunity for you, especially because we were in this period of time like unemployment was going above 11%, and so here's the opportunity to take this nest egg and be good, which was counter to what we were taught in our industry when I came in the industry that, you know exiting out was an economic choice, that once you hit a certain number, then you would go look for activit ies of leisure, because work can be depressing and daunting and stressful and all those kinds of things. And even when I was watching, you know, commercial ads from people in the industry and competitors, you know, you'll see something that goes, and I won't call the company, but they had a very successful campaign that said what's your retirement number? Yes. And this number will follow you down the street. Is this? You know, you walk from the door, do you remember that? And you look at your balance, it's like, if today's the day you just tell your boss, I can't stand you, and it's over with, right? And so this was very counter to what I was experiencing. And so I started to talk to some of the senior level people in my organization. I said, there's something going on here and and they said, well, it's probably because they're talking to us, and they're also shopping with other people to see who they which which company they want to work with. So go offer them a great discount, because it's probably all things equal, and it's just they're being sensitive about numbers, once again, making this an economic choice, so we would do that. And what I recognize is the sales cycle got even longer. And so I would go back to them. But I said, have you been looking at the trends for our sales cycle? And you would think that these would be quick, easy, easy sales, you know, because people supposed to be running out of the door, and they took longer. And so I said, there's something we don't understand about someone who is at this stage, and the feedback I got was, if it's something social emotional, there's nothing we can do about it. You know, if someone's afraid about running out of money, you can create an annuity product to take care of them for life. Somebody's worried about interest rates going up, you can create a product that deals with interest rate sensitivity, but nothing can deal with how a person feels. And I didn't accept that as an answer. I thought that was wrong, because the way I view it is, clients hire us, and they trust us, and we can do a better job the more we understand the client beyond just their finances, right? And I felt like there was a big problem here. So I basically said, you know, I want to go back to school and study this. And I negotiated for time to be in class, and I got it. And so I went to Case Western Reserve University. I got into a PhD program there, and I did four years of PhD study and lots of studies trying to figure out what are the social, emotional factors, as well as the financial factors that a person considers when making the retirement decision. And there were just tons of things that I learned in that process that I used to help my clients. Were happy to talk to you about that journey.

Lesley Logan 7:37

Yeah, I'm excited to get in with that, because it's really funny as you talk about this, I like, my my family, right? My mom is two years from retirement, and she's got two homes, you know, in California that it, honestly, I was trying to get her to sell few years back because it would have been a great idea. And like, get a condo, be set for life. And we're like, showing her the numbers. We're like, look at this. This is a you, you can set yourself up to just be chill, and she is like, not listening, and I think it's because of the emotional attachment to these properties versus, like, the numbers. And so I can I get that right? Like, I get my my in laws could have retired years ago. I don't think that they know what to do if they don't have work things. And I don't even know that they love their work. I think they like what the what the work represents that they do during their day. So I do want to dive into this, because in being it till you see it like I'm hoping that every listener here gets to live to the age that they desire, like and we all are, as you mentioned, like that, the time that we're in people are living a much longer time, like retired at 65 and dying at 90. It's a long time to not have a J-O-B, right? So it would be really cool to chat with you, because like being it till we see it means including what we want to be. How do we want to be when we're older and not doing the thing we're doing? How do we want to be in retirement? So let's dive into that a little bit.

Gregg Lunceford 9:06

Sure, so a couple things I want to cover off on. It was like one, how did we get here? And I think you've already touched on that. The fact is, we're living longer. And so if you are looking at a retirement maybe 50 years ago, when people really started to expire in their late 60s and their 70s. What occurred was you got to 65 and the system told you 65 is the number. Why does this arbitrary number was picked one day when they were trying to figure out Social Security, they said it was 65 is the number, right? And so you come out at that period of time, and you only have just a few healthy years in front of you, or at least you anticipate you only have a few healthy years. So what came out was this concept of a bucket list. So I am going to use these healthy years to travel, play all the golf I can, and have all this leisure that I can before I am too physically unable to do this or mentally unable to do this. And so couple things were wrong there, as it relates to our retirement 21st century. One, we're living longer, so you're going to be physically and mentally able to do something for a long period of time. So if you don't sort of set goals for yourself and see what you can be in the futurem you're going to get bored really, really quickly, and you're going to start to decline very quickly, simply because you're absent of certain things, purpose and drive and and goals and accomplishment. You know, it's more than just a couple rounds of golf that are going to make you happy. And so what I think people don't understand is we are now living in a period of time where it used to be you went from your youth to middle age and to old age. And so this transition from middle age to old age was about that 60 mark, right? And so people just basically said, I have no more control. The system is going to do what it does to me. I'm going to be booted out of my job. I'm going to be sent off to do leisure. I guess that means I play with my grandchildren or volunteer, and I'll just follow suit. And what happened is a lot of people found themselves doing things that weren't rewarding to them. Now we're in a new era, because we live longer. And what is present now is what is called, in academic terms, the Third Age. So you now go from early age to middle age to this Third Age, which is this undefined period, and today's retirees are the first people to go on this, and then you go on the old age, and the Third Age is this 20 year life bonus, where you get to define who and what you want to be. And think about it, you're wiser than you ever been. For most people, you have more financial resources than you ever had. You don't have a commitment to other people, meaning you've raised your children so you don't have to worry about them. Hopefully you're in a position where you don't have to care for aging loved ones, right? So this is a period of time where you can do anything and everything you always wanted to do. And people go, well, what didn't I have the opportunity to do whatever I wanted to do? Not quite, because remember when we were growing up, and those before us were growing up, we were kind of encouraged to do things that were socially acceptable. Rght?

Lesley Logan 11:02

I agree.

Gregg Lunceford 9:07

It wasn't until recent decades where someone says, I'm going to start a computer company out of my garage. I'm going to drop out of college and do something that's undefined and pioneer so the current generations, entering into into retirement, have never developed this proactive protein behavior the way maybe millennials and Generation Z has.

Lesley Logan 12:54

I completely agree. Because, like, I, I mean, I feel very lucky that even though I was raised very much by, like, almost a Boomer and and a hippie like, I do have a career where I am doing whatever I want. I'm an elder millennial, so I have that, but I have friends who are just a few years older than me, and I don't think that they have a they don't have hobbies. If they have a hobby, it's going to the gym. You know what I mean? Like, it's like they don't really have things so outside of their work, it's like, what do you do for fun? Are you kidding? Like there's no and so I feel like what you're getting at is, like, no one has actually spent time thinking like, but what do I actually want? How can I dream about that, right? How can I make that so exciting that that I want to take a retirement package or that I'm excited to I have this I'm not just like, oh, let me go play golf three times a week. Like, what else? I have no purpose. I think it's really fascinating that that there is a good chunk of, like, I would say, probably over 45 who don't really, they're exploring it, but don't know. And how do you figure that out?

Gregg Lunceford 13:59

So let me ask you a question. Lesley, what is your earliest memory? Or how about how old do you think you were when someone first asked you what you wanted to be when you grow up?

Lesley Logan 14:09

I remember being in elementary school, and I'm sure it was asked of me earlier, because people have told me that I said something different earlier. But I remember in fourth grade, I had to, like, write a poem about who I was and what like, what did it feel like, and what did it sound like, and what did it look like. And I said, a judge, you guys, that should shock everyone.

Gregg Lunceford 14:36

My point is so since age 10, someone has been helping you develop your work identity. So people were asking you at home or in your neighborhood or a church or wherever you socialize, what you're going to be then you're going to go to a middle school and you're at the high school and they're going to assign a counselor, going to start telling you to think about college or trade school or whatever it is. Is then you got to get into career. And then whatever career you get in, maybe you're assigned a mentor that's helping you understand or think about how to advance in that career. And then you get to this point where maybe you're like late 40s or 50s. And does anybody help you figure out what your identity will be after work.

Lesley Logan 15:22

No, as you're saying this.

Gregg Lunceford 15:24

You're on your own. You're on your own. And the only thing that was different here is when they put you into that position where you were felt forced into retirement, right? And then there was also a safety net there in the form of a pension that doesn't exist the way it once did, and there were other government safety nets that may not exist the way they once did before, when they put you there, you just said, okay, I'll accept it, because I'm only going to be around five years anyway. So let me work on this bucket list, but you never really thought about and I think people don't really dig into thinking about what the value of work is, beyond the financial resources it provides. So they get to the tail end of their career, and some people may not even think about it anyway, either. So career, because you've spent all this time having these conversations, you start developing this identity because your work, you become what your work is, right? And so, so a lot of people look at the economic resources it provides, but work also provides for us ways to get psychological success. Who doesn't like completing a task and getting recognition, and if you're in a good working environment, right? Everyone says, Let's applaud Lesley because she did this for the team which created this opportunity for the company, which created this value that she should be recognized for, right? So that that's very important, that gives you a reason to get out of bed, that gives you a reason to thrive, and that has some value when you walk out of the work environment. How do you replace that when you go into this third age? The second thing is, work provides socialization. No matter what you think about your work colleagues, if you like them, that's great. They give you somebody that you want to see every day, that you become personal friends with, that you grow with, that you learn to care about. If you hate them, they give you something to laugh about at the end of the day. You know what that idiot Bob did today again, right? That gives that gives you more than you think, right? And so work provides socialization. And then the third thing that work provides that we often overlook is structure in your day. What to do with your time, right? And so for a lot of people, when they don't have somewhere to go, something to do that makes them feel accomplished, and people to be around that they enjoy or either get some form of comical satisfaction from, they're lost when you put them out there on their own. And so what I learned and through my research is this transition for a lot of people, is the first career transition that they've made independently, and it is scary.

Lesley Logan 18:08

Yeah. I mean, when you put all that together and I'm just like, going, wow, you know, people aren't it, one of the questions we've got on the pod is like, how do you make friends as a note when you move to a new place? It's like, I mean, for us, we work for ourselves. So, like, we didn't have a place to go to make, you know, so I, my husband and I have a different experience in, like, how to find socialization and structure to our day. And, you know, like we've had to make it happen. But for so many you know, my dad, he quit his he quit his security job. Yes, guys, my 72 year old father was a security guard, but he quit it because he got frustrated. Anyways, he is back working as a crosswalk guard because he's like, I'm bored. I have nothing to do, and I'm like, but dad, we could get a hobby. We could play these game like, all this stuff. And it's because he never, ever, ever in his whole life, did anyone ever encourage developing the skills outside of work.

Gregg Lunceford 19:06

Developing a retirement identity, right, developing a retirement identity. And what also makes it hard is, you know, when you are developing a retirement identity, like I said, this is your first shot at personal freedom in life. Okay, when you're growing up, you had to do what your parents told you to do. Then you became an adult, and then you had all these set of responsibilities. And so you were doing what people told you you ought to do. You were really working on your art self. So if you're going to have a family, you ought to find a job that produces enough income, you know. So you didn't really think about ideally what you wanted to do. And what is really amazing to me is I've interviewed some highly successful people that do amazing things, and when I start talking to them about forming their ideal self, the stuff they come up with is so counter to what what and who they are. It is. Is amazing to me. So I get cancer surgery or successful attorneys or engineers to say I want to learn how to write mystery novels, or I want to start a rock band. And so what it points to me, and what it what comes out to me is these are probably things that they wanted to do in the 10, in their teens, in their early 20s, all along, but they couldn't do that because society told them these are not the things a person ought to do. You know, if they want stability in terms of income, if they want respect in their community, if they want you know, the structure that around it allows them to have a family and not have to worry about things. And so now you get to this third age, and I saw all off the table. You're wiser than you've ever been. You have more financial resources than you've ever had. You know, you have more personal freedom. Now you get to, really, for the first time, work on who your ideal self, not your ought self, who you want to be. And if you get it right, you're the only person you have to hold accountable. If you get it wrong, you're the only person you have to hold accountable. And so some people go, well, Greg, what does it have to do with money? I think people who don't take time to find this identity burn through a lot of money trying to find themselves. Right? And so, when I first started this journey, I was trying to find a cohort of individuals that had finished their career, achieved financial success and had 30 years ahead of them. And what were their behaviors, and where you consistently see this is with professional athletes, right? You're out of the game early. Right? You're in your 30s, and you're Tom Brady, you're 40, but that's the long game. But you're really out in your late 20s, your early 30s, you don't have financial concerns, right? And what is the behavior? And sometimes we demonize athletes for dysfunctional behavior after Hey, but all they're showing us is who we are going to be if we don't develop a retirement identity.

Lesley Logan 22:09

Yes, Greg, you are 100% correct there. I think most people, think most people will say they don't know how to manage their money and and to your research and what we've been talking about here, it's not about managing money it's about they don't know who they are without their sport because they spent, for those people, they spent, literally, since they were a child in that sport and getting so many accolades, and then all of a sudden, no one cares. No one pays attention to them. For the most part, they're not going to be on TV like, that's it. And so I think it, I think you're spot on. It's not about the money responsibility, although they might need to learn some. It's about who, who are they now that they're not playing.

Gregg Lunceford 22:50

Right and so then you go, well, this athlete just went broke because they put all this money in his business. Well, they're trying to get the same accolades in business they got in sports, right? They're trying to replace that identity that made them feel good, made them feel accomplished and some people are very successful at it. Those aren't. But my point is, there has to be a road map to get that yes, and it doesn't always have to be in business. It could be in your civic activities. It could be you learning to act, or you become in sport, but you have to first of all imagine who your ideal self is. And just like you were coached and you read and you trained to build that ought self, hopefully, for some people, a lot of people, the ought self is their ideal self, and they're usually entrepreneurs like you, where you that you know what, I'm not going to go to normal path. I'm going to carve a path for myself, and entrepreneurship gives me that freedom. But for a lot of people, they have to figure out now that I've satisfied all these obligations to other people and other things, who do I ideally want to be and then work at how do I get there? Because if you go in there blindly, you're just the same as that person out of that was in sports or any other industry, you're just trying to find this quick hit to replace all of these accolades or psychological successes you got. And you can blow up a lot of money doing that. So the well being comes from getting all of these components right, not just as we were taught in the 20th century, just making sure you don't run out of money.

Lesley Logan 24:26

Gregg, this is insane. So okay, so I love all of this. And it's, it's, it's like, so aligned, because I'm always like, can't be you're not gonna get right the first time. Like, we have to ditch perfection, which, of course, in workplace, it's very honed. Like, check the box. Do it right. Do it right. So you have to talk to the boss about how you did it wrong. Like, get it right. Like, so of course, when you, when you retire, if you haven't been working on these things, you're you're going to be hard on you're going to take your ought self into your retirement. So I guess, like, first of all, I don't think that most financial retirement planners do any of these questions. So when, if, when people come to you talk retirement, are you like pulling are you like asking them what their ideal, what they want their ideal self to be? Do they even know how to find it? What questions do they have to ask themselves?

Gregg Lunceford 25:13

Well, we do have. We have. We have a lot of conversation about, you know, not only can you financially afford it, we can put some numbers of software and come up with that answer pretty quickly, right? But we also have a conversation about, what do you think your lifestyle will be, and why do you think this is right for you? And what do you want to accomplish? And you know, some folks will come in and say, hey, I think I want to start a small business, right? And so we might talk about them, and they don't want they don't want work again in the way they want it, but they want something to do that is work on their own terms. So a lot of this is you changing the terms of what you're doing and because when we go, especially if we go to work for a corporation or some that's usually a unilateral contract, right? The person the institution is telling you, I'll give you X amount of dollars if you do this. And you say, but what if I did a little different? No, you don't get a choice in that. This is what you got to do, right? And what we're recognizing is we do have some power in that. We do have some power. I've seen a lot of people be successful in going back to their places of work and negotiating consulting contracts. And they basically said, you know, I don't want to do nine to five, but if you have a special project that you bring on, let's say you bring you on new software, whatever, and this is going to be a nine-month project, or it's going to be something you need few hours, you know, out of the week and but I get the summers off. I'm your person for doing that. And that's how they're able to get from their ought self into their ideal self, because the time that they're not there, they now start to figure out what their personal freedom, what they really like to do. So I think of one person now, he was very successful at this, but he also was confident enough talking to his employer, because he was the head of HR, so he knew he was a little bit more comfortable. But basically what he did was he got to this point, and he was ready to make this transition now, but he didn't know what he wanted to do. So he went to and he said, look, I'm the head of HR, I got 70 people reporting to me. I'm willing to give all of my direct reports to my successor. If you help me, let me help you identify my successor, and help me groom your successor. So his role became more of coach, manager, mentor, in this last couple of years, and that was three days a week. He said the other day a week. These are institutions, nonprofit institutions, that we, as an organization, support. I want one day to volunteer with one of them, and so now they get a free executive for one day a week. That was great for the company. Worked out well. He said, then the fifth day of the week, I just want a day off. I want to see if I really enjoy leisure. Everyone tells me I'm supposed to play all these rounds of golf and lay back and relax. Let me make sure that that's the right thing for me. So he has three days a week that he is engaging in what he traditionally knows in terms of what his identity is. He has one day a week to see if he wants to change his identity in his community through his volunteerism, and he has one day a week to figure out if I just want to exit all together. And the answer is, you can do one of the three of those. You can continue doing all of the three of those. What we have now is, if you shape them correctly, is we have what are called boundary-less careers. And so this is where I think, you know, we give Millennials a bad rap. We give millennials a bad rap because we always say, well, they like to do a gig economy. They don't stay anywhere 30 years. But what they're really engaging in is today's boundary-less career, where they define success for themselves, versus going down the traditional path, which says you can only be successful by going up the pyramid. For them is, you know what? I can be equally financially successful. I can gig here, gig there, and add it all together, or I can and get this personal freedom and know how to negotiate so that I'm spending more time, just as much time developing my ideal self as I'm developing my ought self.

Lesley Logan 29:21

Oh my gosh, Gregg, you just like, I think you're the first person to ever give the millennials a compliment. But thank you. Constantly find myself defending, like, I'm like, what are we talking about? Like, we're not bad, we're we're a group that's how to really fight, like, figure things out. Because when we came into the world where we got a job, like, everything was so uncertain. You know, between 911 and between, that's when I went to college, and then I got out of college, and it was like the recession, like, there's not, there's not been an opportunity to have a certainty of a 30-year career. But I think what you're, what I'm, what I love about what your saying is, like, we've actually been spending our careers figuring out who we are, and like, spending time doing that. And I am obsessed with what the example of the guy you gave, because I think so many people can start playing with that right now. So many companies are looking to go to a four day work week, you know, like, so many places are looking to have like, Okay, you're in office for some days and you're at home for other days. Like, we can look at those opportunities as ways to figure out our retirement identity.

Gregg Lunceford 30:22

Right. And a lot of us get stuck in this, oh, well, I work for this large corporation. They aren't flexible. There are a lot of small, medium sized companies that are in growth mode that that model works very well. That's what they can afford. And they need the institutional knowledge and the wisdom you got to be able to and this is where we go back to talking about boundary list careers. You got to think about all of the universe and parts of it you don't even know exist. This is where your personal curiosity has to kick in to get what you want.

Lesley Logan 30:53

Yeah. Yeah. Okay, Gregg, so I feel like you are a unicorn though. Like, I really do feel like, because, I mean, obviously, what a cool company, that they're like, yeah, go, take four years to figure out this idea you have, and then, like.

Gregg Lunceford 31:09

Well no, they weren't that cool. That's why I'm here.

Lesley Logan 31:14

Okay, that's cool.

Gregg Lunceford 31:15

I kind of, I took a lot of flack as I was doing this, and because people were going, we don't understand why you're doing thi, right, and you know, we don't really understand your need to do it. And there were a few key executives that said, you know, they were really supportive of me, but overall, it was, you know, I was sort of like I was trailblazing, and people were going, you you have a very good set of responsibilities here, that you could be highly successful. Why do you want to tinker with the mouse trap? And I said, I think this would make me a better advisor to my clients, if I, if I came to understand this now, back then, and, you know, there was no one talking about psychology. I'm a certified financial planner now, the CFP exam as of I think, like two, three years ago, 11% of the exam is psychology now. But I was, I was in a very uncomfortable space, but I believed I was right. So when you start talking about, you know, be it till you see it, right, I'd be, I was in a very uncomfortable space. And this is my book, Exit From Work, I write about it in my book, but I am glad I had the journey, because I feel as though I'm a better professional, and my clients appreciate it.

Lesley Logan 32:21

Yeah. I mean, like, you know, years ago, I read the book Psychology of Money, right? I think that's what it's called, or maybe it's called profit, but I think that's money. And, like, I said, like, the type of person you have to be to get money is very different than the type of person you'd be to keep the money. And I was like, like, that's, by the way, that's, like, the thing I remember from the whole book, it's, but at any rate, I remember that sticking going, hold on a second. Like, we as people have to evolve, like, one on the getting, two on the keeping, and that goes kind of along with what you're saying. Like, you know, you have to understand the emotion psychology behind all of this. Because, yes, spreadsheets are great, but with AI, like, we don't need a bunch of people do a spreadsheet anymore. So there's that we need someone to help guide us to like, well, who is it like, where is this money going? What do you want to do with it? What like was also, what if, instead of like, okay, here comes our retirement age, what if it's like, oh my gosh, like, I can't even wait, or, actually, I'm going part time now, and my retirement is part time, and I'm doing all these other things. Like, that's so cool that you, I mean, you do that, it's not easy to be a trailblazer. It's not easy to be the only person talking about it, though.

Gregg Lunceford 33:27

Right. It's rewarding in the end, and so, and I think a lot of people find it liberating, because if you got 20 years, you just really want to do what people tell you you ought to do. I mean, especially when you spent the first 60 doing that. And so really, what this third age is supposed to be. It's supposed to be the most dynamic part of your life, right? It is a way to course correct or either enhance something that's already gone well for you, versus a lot of people going to retirement, because that's what retirement was when it first started off, it was really this negotiation between management and labor, where, especially, we were in an industrial society. So labor was more physical, right now we're in a service economy, so it was really more cerebral. But back then, you know, they wanted a management wanted employees who could swing a hammer so many times a minute, and that was usually somebody under age 40, and this is where we start getting age protection laws, right. And anyone over 40 they wanted out of the workforce. So, you know, retirement didn't start off as this, oh, this is this great thing, and they're going to write me checks for the rest of my life. It didn't start off as that. It really started off as you were really making someone feel devalued because you you didn't have any and so we've gone along with this model. It wasn't until maybe, like the 19 late 70s or 1980s when we went into this global recession where people started getting offered these early retirement packages to come out of companies because globally, a lot of people, a lot of companies, had financial issues to deal with. And what they weren't expecting when they let this 55 year old go is that life expectancy was starting to go up, and so now this 55 year old is now living to 80, and they got the best end of the deal. And what is happening financially right now is people are looking at their parents and grandparents who got that deal, and they're going, I can never afford to do what they did, and not realizing that that was an anomaly. And so a lot of people, socially, emotionally, feel like they're failing, and they don't want to talk about retirement because they feel as though I'll never be able to do what the person did before me and therefore there must be something wrong with what I'm doing or what me and the reality is the game is changing, and so you actually have more personal freedom than they have. And just like they walked into a unique situation, you have to craft a unique situation for you that works.

Lesley Logan 36:04

Yes, that, Gregg, this is, you're a historian. You're like a life coach and like the person we all need to be thinking about when it comes to like, because it doesn't matter how I mean, obviously we're told, like, the earlier you can start thinking about retirement, the better. But people don't want to do that, like I said the beginning of this. They want to put their head in the sand, like, I can't be my grandparents, so I'm just going to keep doing what I ought to do, and just and like, we'll deal with that later. We'll figure out the number later. But I think if we can, like, start thinking about it now, it really does allow us to curate the experience we have with work, but then also set ourselves up for that third age where we can have a really good time getting to know ourselves even deeper, and not not losing money along the way.

Gregg Lunceford 36:51

That's correct, because in that third age, you may convert a hobby. So I have a friend who was in banking with me. He would always go take a week or two off every year and just go to Europe and backpack. He would stay at, you know, two three star hotels. He was like, I'm not there every day. And he would just go take the most amazing pictures he bring them back to the office. And we would go, Jim, you know, you should have an art show. And he was like, Nah, they're just hobbies or whatever. And he had a hard shell, and people started buying his art. And so, you know, now in retirement, you know his joy also produces income. And so he has defined work on his own terms. It doesn't even feel like work to him. And so what a lot of people who are looking at their parents and grandparents and then going, you know, they got this pension for life, and they don't offer pensions anymore, and they didn't get sandwiched. So they didn't have the burden, financial burden of raising kids and having to take care of parents. I'm stuck. I'll never be able to do that. There's something wrong you don't understand. You now have this 20 year life bonus, where you can learn to gig, you can learn to I often point to the show The Golden Girls. I don't know if the creators of the show knew what they were doing or they intentionally did this, but look at that model. I think that's the model a lot of people are going to have to go to. And I think you touched on this a little bit earlier. You start talking about your father and your in laws. And you know, we don't have kinship the way we once did, once small, we have smaller families, right? Two, geographically we disperse, right? And so what in this planning process of your ideal self, what you also have to learn how to do is to replace kinships with friendships. So that's what was going on in that in that Golden Girls house, you had Dorothy and her mother, Sophia, that had a kinship, but where they didn't have kinship, they replaced it with their roommates with Blanche and Betty (inaudible). And so now that you have this replacement of family that you trust and you get along with, now you got four people to split your rent with, so that makes the money go longer, right? Yeah, then you start talking about what went on every day. Well, sometimes they were doing volunteer work, and then they had to spin off where they bought a hotel. So they basically were doing their own version of a gig economy, right? They were engaging as much as they wanted to or not. Then they had socialization from each other. There was always something going on in that house, right? Yes. And so, right? And then they had things to create psychological success. So I don't know if the creators of the show recognized at the time, but to me, I looked at it as sort of foreshadowing what people have to create for themselves on their own with this life bonus, and it will help them both financially, as well as their mental and their mental well being.

Lesley Logan 40:00

Gregg, yes. I mean, I joke with my friends who have kids. I'm like, I just want you to know that your kid is gonna have to take care of me because I don't have kids. But really, actually, I just need to find my Golden Girls, my husband. I just need to find a co op, a little commune of all of our friend all of our friends who don't have kids, we actually like what we're being with. And we could have a great little retirement home, maybe make it a BnB. This what I what I just I'm obsessed with, and why I got excited to have you on is, you know, oftentimes the Be It Till You See It podcast really talks about, like, what we can do right now, like, for right now, what we can do to be it till we see it tomorrow, or for the thing we want next year. Or there might be some stuff I have never thought of it as like, what can we be doing right now to be it till we see it for retirement in a way that we can choose, like we get the life is literally what we want, and the research you've done, the education you've had, and how you've literally seen it implemented in unique ways, because of all this work, is so cool. It makes me excited to actually, like, look into that future. Because, like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm not gonna look past 50, because I got things to do with my job, with the job that I created for myself. It's like, oh, hold on a second. What, like, what can I be playing with right now so that I know what I'm gonna do past 50, so that I have something to look forward to. So I'm excited about it. So, Gregg, what are you most excited about right now?

Gregg Lunceford 41:20

I'm excited about I'm writing and researching and learning about the person I'm becoming. So and so I often joke with my clients, but I'm really not joking. They'll come back and they'll tell me some amazing experience they had, and I always tell them, leave me a list of notes so I know where to start when it comes to my time, and I say that jokingly, but it's something it is serious. What we all need to start to focus on right now is just like we had that career guidance counselor helping us and coaching us. And to that next thing, we need to start taking time to figure out that action plan for that next thing. And once you start to figure out I need to form a retirement identity and understand my ideal self, you start to self motivate and become excited about it. So what I really enjoy about what I've done through my work, whether it be here as an advisor or through my research, is that I'm helping people understand that they have a lot to be encouraged by, right? You're going to get 20 years to do whatever it is you want to do. And what I also want people to be understanding of. You don't have to leave the workforce if you're doing something awesome already. Just keep doing it. And if you want to modify that in some kind of way, figure out a plan, or figure out your terms and how to negotiate those terms. Say you can do that.

Lesley Logan 42:51

Oh, I just like each answer. I just get more excited for people. I'm excited for myself. Like, I'm like, wow, this is so fun. We're gonna take a brief break and then find out where people can find you, follow you, work with you and your Be It Action Items.

Lesley Logan 43:00

Okay, Gregg, where can they connect with you? You have a book, Exit From Work, but where, where can they go to chat with you, work with you like, get more ideas about their retirement identity?

Gregg Lunceford 43:14

Sure, so I can be reached at mesirow.com so our website, M-E-S-I-R-O-W dot com, on that, if you put in my name in our search engine, Gregg Lunceford, you'll come up with my team web page. We'll have my bio, my contact information, also a list of all my publications. Also, if you're interested in my book, Exit From Work. This can be found on amazon.com, and I'm always encouraged by people who take time to drop me a note, or we didn't even go into I talked about the Golden Girls situation. We didn't even go into their academically based retirement communities. Now, basically, instead of dormitory you lived in when you were in your late teens and 20s, now people are going back to retire near where they went to school. So they now have, because we don't have these kinships, they're now bracing building friendships based on the fact that they're alumni, or they love the school and and so it's sort of like this, you were living in the Golden Girls subdivision, maybe.

Lesley Logan 44:15

Oh, my God.

Gregg Lunceford 44:15

So there are all kinds of things that are going on right now, and I just, I write about it in my book too. I just want people to learn about that so they don't feel as though they're confined to what they saw their parents do.

Lesley Logan 44:27

Yeah, yeah. Oh my gosh, Brad, when you listen to this, we'll choose your school, because he went to music school, so we'll choose that one.

Gregg Lunceford 44:37

He could, he could probably teach all the people I know they want to start a rock band.

Lesley Logan 44:41

Yeah, yeah, yeah, him and his buddies. That could be their whole little they would love it. Okay, you've given us a lot, but I do want to dive into the bold, executable, intrinsic or targeted steps people can take to be it till they see it. What do you have for us?

Gregg Lunceford 44:56

Okay, so what you first have to do is you have to create a vision. And if you have a partner, it is very important that that be a shared vision. The last thing we want to do is get to the end of our career and then have conflict with our partner. And a lot of that happens because most couples do not talk about retirement. They don't even know if the other partners is saving for retirement. Like 40% couples don't even talk about this. Don't even do the calculation to get past them. So so if you haven't even done the basics on that end, talking about this thing you aspire to be is very difficult because And so last thing you want to do is you both jump in it, and then you you're stuck and you're unhappy. So create a vision. If you have a partner, make sure that's a shared vision. And then start talking about goals. Engage someone like myself, who's a financial planning professional, to help you see how you can align your financial wherewithal with those goals. And then think differently. Think about being your best self at this stage, not being someone who society just said it's time for you to leave, because that's not the case. You have more value to offer a lot of people than you think.

Lesley Logan 46:07

I do, I love that. This is an episode I really hope my in-laws actually listen to. I really am. I'm actually just really excited for even our our listeners who who are like, you know, they might be in there. They might be, like, 15, 20 years away from retirement, but, or even 10, but, like, we have a bunch of them, and I hope this helps them rethink that, because I think sometimes there's a fear to, oh, my God, you know. And you just said it like being the system has told them that they're done, but you're not done. And so I just you've given, like, so much excitement around this topic, and joy and possibility. So Gregg, thank you for being you. You all, how are you going to use these tips in your life? We want to know. Make sure you tell Gregg Lunceford your takeaways. I'm sure it will make his day. Share this with friend who needs to hear it, that friend who's like, so worried all the time, like, absolutely needs this. And you know what to do until next time, Be It Till You See It.

Lesley Logan 47:01

That's all I got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It Podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate the show and leave a review and follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to your podcast. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over at the Be It Pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us and others Be It Till You See It. Have an awesome day. Be It Till You See It is a production of The Bloom Podcast Network. If you want to leave us a message or a question that we might read on another episode, you can text us at +1-310-905-5534 or send a DM on Instagram @BeItPod.

Brad Crowell 47:44

It's written, filmed, and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan, and me, Brad Crowell.

Lesley Logan 47:49

It is transcribed, produced and edited by the epic team at Disenyo.co.

Brad Crowell 47:54

Our theme music is by Ali at Apex Production Music and our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi.

Lesley Logan 48:01

Special thanks to Melissa Solomon for creating our visuals.

Brad Crowell 48:04

Also to Angelina Herico for adding all of our content to our website. And finally to Meridith Root for keeping us all on point and on time.

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634. You Need to Form a Strong Retirement Identity