547. Love Moving Again—Don’t Let Foot Pain Hold You Back

00:00
40:25

Foot health expert and co-founder of Gait Happens, Dr. Jennifer Perez unpack the misunderstood world of feet. From bunions and plantar fasciitis to toe strength and footwear myths, Dr. Jen breaks down how your feet impact your entire body and what you can do—starting today—to reconnect and restore their natural strength. Expect actionable advice, surprising insights, and some myth-busting around the shoes you might be wearing right now.

If you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to LesleyLogan.co/podcast https://lesleylogan.co/podcast/. If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at beit@lesleylogan.co mailto:beit@lesleylogan.co.

And as always, if you’re enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe https://lesleylogan.co/podcast/#follow-subscribe-free.


In this episode you will learn about:

  • Why Dr. Jen shifted her focus to feet after her own injuries.
  • How foot pain can derail confidence and daily life.
  • Exercises to activate toe strength and rebuild foot control.
  • What plantar fasciitis and bunions actually are—and how to treat them.
  • Why most shoes are harming your feet and how to choose better ones.
  • The role of toe spacers, barefoot training, and natural gait.
  • What “less shoe” really means and how it helps prevent injury.


Episode References/Links:


Guest Bio:

Dr. Jennifer Perez is a board-certified chiropractor and co-founder of Gait Happens, an education-focused platform helping people rethink foot health from the ground up. With advanced training in biomechanics and years of hands-on experience, she focuses on improving foot strength, mobility, and overall movement to keep people doing what they love—without pain or limitations. 

In her Lafayette, Colorado practice, Dr. Perez works with everyone from high-level athletes to everyday movers. Through Gait Happens, she also supports clients around the world with virtual consults and programs designed to get to the root of common foot issues like plantar fasciitis and bunions—without jumping straight to orthotics or surgery. Known for her real-world, movement-first approach, Dr. Perez is also a trusted voice in the health and fitness space. Whether she’s working with patients, teaching professionals, or speaking on stage, she’s passionate about helping people build a stronger foundation—literally—and showing that taking care of your feet doesn’t have to be complicated.


If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox. https://lovethepodcast.com/BITYSI

DEALS! DEALS! DEALS! DEALS! https://onlinepilatesclasses.com/memberships/perks/#equipment

Check out all our Preferred Vendors & Special Deals from Clair Sparrow, Sensate, Lyfefuel BeeKeeper’s Naturals, Sauna Space, HigherDose, AG1 and ToeSox https://onlinepilatesclasses.com/memberships/perks/#equipment

Be in the know with all the workshops at OPC https://workshops.onlinepilatesclasses.com/lp-workshop-waitlist

Be It Till You See It Podcast Survey https://pod.lesleylogan.co/be-it-podcasts-survey

Be a part of Lesley’s Pilates Mentorship https://lesleylogan.co/elevate/

FREE Ditching Busy Webinar https://ditchingbusy.com/


Resources:


Follow Us on Social Media:


Episode Transcript:

Dr. Jenifer Perez 0:00  

She kind of pulled the curtain back on how important our feet are. And not just, you know, when you think about like your skin health and things like that, but truly, from a biomechanics perspective, our feet are our foundation, and how they interact with the ground is really important and has a huge influence on the rest of our body.


Lesley Logan 0:19  

Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I'm Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I've trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self-doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it's the antidote to fear. Each week, my guest will bring bold, executable, intrinsic and targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It's a practice, not a perfect. Let's get started.


Lesley Logan 1:02  

All right, Be It babe. This conversation, this is about your feet. We got to talk about them. We got to talk about them because I don't want your dreams in this life, the things you want to do to ever be held back by pain. And a lot of pain that we have in our bodies is actually coming from what's going on in our feet. And the guest we have today is one of the most amazing experts on feet, like just truly, truly amazing Dr. Jenifer Perez from Gait Happens. She is going to nerd out with us. And if you're not watching this, I do recommend that, after the end of listening to it, that if you are interested in seeing what she's showing, you want to go to our Be It Pod YouTube channel and see the video, because she's showing the muscles of the feet. We talk about bunions, we talk about plantar fasciitis. We talk about even this, like, how to choose shoes. And I know this can be a little off the beaten path, because you're like, what about the journals? You guys, you got to take care of your feet. You have to, if it's between journaling and doing a foot exercise, maybe do a minute of foot exercise and a minute of journaling, because it's important that you know yourself inside and out, but that you're taking care of your feet, because they are going to take you everywhere you want to go, every place you want to be it until you see it. So here is Dr. Jen Perez from Gait Happens. 


Lesley Logan 2:11  

All right, Be It babe. So this, today's guest is someone I've been kind of hunting down, kind of stalking in the best way, exploring all their things, nerding out, and I'm really excited, mostly personally, because I've been so interested in my own feet and and just like trying to not have the bunions that I feel like are inevitable happening to my feet. But, at any rate, Dr. Jen Perez from Gait Happens is our guest today. And Dr. Jen Perez, can you tell everyone who you are and why you rock at feet so much?


Dr. Jenifer Perez 2:42  

Absolutely, I love that you're so excited. I mean, this is, this is what I do. It is foot education, essentially, what it all boils down. And it's kind of funny, you know, not to dive too deep into my story, but I didn't like, I hated feet growing up.


Lesley Logan 2:54  

I'm so glad you're telling us, because I'm like, are you really into feet? 


Dr. Jenifer Perez 2:57  

I know I like, I was like, feet are gross. I want nothing to do with feet like and then halfway through chiro school, I attended a seminar, we're trying to learn how to tape shoulders, and the instructor kept talking about feet. And essentially, what ended up happening is she kind of pulled the curtain back on how important our feet are. And not just, you know, when you think about like your skin health and things like that, but truly from a biomechanics perspective, our feet are our foundation, and how they interact with the ground is really important and has a huge influence on the rest of our body. And as soon as I kind of really started to think about feet from this perspective, I got really excited, because it's something that is not talked about enough, which is why I love having conversations like this, so kind of how I ended up in the foot world, I guess. 


Lesley Logan 3:46  

I think that's really great, because I was gonna, like I, part of me was thinking, like, you must have seen some weird looking feet. I'm a Pilates instructor. I've seen some weird feet, and when I see them, I kind of inquired, like, what's your life been? How long have you had this? Because I don't, you know, like in Pilates, they don't go deep on any one thing. You can, you can niche out and everything. But like, you know, I'm really obsessed with Joseph Pilates had a ton of foot stuff. He had the toe corrector and the foot corrector. And, like, it's really kind of cool to see people like yourself and other people doing stuff that, like the toe corrector does, and so it's like, it's nice to know that, like, you know, in the 40s, he was doing these things. But we don't go into nuances. When I'm like, seeing arches have fallen, then I see like, you know, 70 year old people who had arches fall now their ankle bones are, like, humongous. And I'm like, oh my God, we have to know more about our feet. And I, like, one of the things I hear people, hold people back from, like, things they want to do is pain. You know, as a Pilates instructor, I work with a lot of people, when they're in pain, they don't go on trips, you know, and that's like a luxury, anyways, but it also holds people back from just even attempting taking on jobs or moving or trying new things. And so kind of wanted to dig into like, you know, What? What? How important are feet? And do they really hold us back or is that like a story we're telling ourselves?


Dr. Jenifer Perez 5:01  

No, you're, you're absolutely right. And of course, my population is biased, because they're coming to me with pain, typically. But those stories that you all mentioned are stories I hear every single day. Someone saying, you know, I had this trip to Europe planned, and I canceled it because I can't walk, you know, more than 100 steps a day, and that's going to require me to walk thousands of steps a day. Or someone who is they have they can't walk to the mailbox at the end of their driveway, and or they're terrified to even shower barefoot because their feet hurt so bad. I mean truly, foot pain, like we said, you're on your feet all day long, and so when your feet hurt, it really does hold you back. And that kind of comes in a spectrum of different severities and different kinds of pain and different pathologies, but at the end of the day, it does hold us back. And that's what I'm trying to help people do, is kind of retake their foot health and really strengthen their feet so that they're not holding them back anymore.


Lesley Logan 5:59  

Yeah. I mean, like, my, my dad's 72 and like, I yesterday, were at the gym together, and I watched him, like, navigate his leg over a bench. And I, part of me, was like, oh, I don't want to do that. And part was like, no, get that leg over that bench. Like, as long as he can lift his leg high enough to go over a bench sideways, he's holding the barbell. Like, we're good. But like, I think, you know, I, he lives in a senior living center, and I watch people like, their life declined so fast because they're not as active. But if you are in pain and you're not active, like other things, shut down, you know, like, and we can talk about, like the calves are like the second heart, right? So if you're not taking steps, you're not pumping the blood back up, and you're not taking steps because your feet hurt, like other things just go wrong.


Dr. Jenifer Perez 6:42  

Well, and it's and to your point, it's also, it's not just the physical right, it's our mental and emotional health as well. Because if you can't walk, if you can't do the activities that you love, then we start to see mental decline with that as well. And it's really fascinating. There's more and more research coming out around cognitive ability, which is also fascinating in itself but, fall risk alone, fall risk, one of the biggest indicators of fall risk is toe strength. They used to think it was, you know, the bigger muscles, like the glutes and the hamstrings and things like that. And when they did a comparative analysis, the two biggest indicators of fall risk were blood pressure and toe strength. 


Lesley Logan 7:18  

This is insane to me. I love because I always like, say, like, say, like, like, Pilates helps you fall better. And there is some truth to that. Like, we help with, like, you know, hip muscles and core strength. And you're like, you understand, move your legs with your center, but it is your, the toe strength is something that's so interesting and like, so let's talk about, like, maybe we should just get into it. Like, I kind of, is it like our big toe only? Is it all 10 toes? What if you lose a toe? What? How do we strengthen our toes? 


Dr. Jenifer Perez 7:48  

Yeah, let's jump in. So that research in particular looked at all 10 toes. So it looked at big toes and outer toes, and it found a significant difference in fall risk based on both. So the good news about that is, we have 10 toes. So let's say there is a toe amputation or, you know, some kind of accident or injury, you know, we have 10 so we can (inaudible) strength, right? Our bodies are amazing adapters. But in the average person, we are looking for strong toes. We actually have kind of a reference range around that we even measure toe strength in our office. 


Lesley Logan 8:24  

Oh, my God, I have to come visit you. I just want to know if they're good. 


Dr. Jenifer Perez 8:28  

Right? Everyone's favorite part of their appointment, because everyone starts like clenching their fists and sweating in the chair, trying so hard. But we're looking for about 10% of our body weight out of the big toe and about 7% of our body weight out of the outer four toes. So the big toes, (inaudible) is supposed to be stronger. It also has, for those watching, you can see my fancy foot model. So it also has a thicker bone. It has reinforcements. It even has two sesamoid bones which increase the lever arm, which basically makes it better for propulsion, similar to what our kneecap does. And so all of this is designed to make us really, really strong. But we have four layers of built-in muscles inside our feet. And I love using this foot model with my patients because.


Lesley Logan 9:18  

Oh my gosh. You guys. This is the most. I've never seen a foot model like this. This is insane. I've never seen one like this. I know that the feet have, like, all the the feet have the most amount of joints and muscles, correct, like, that's, it's in your feet, yes.


Dr. Jenifer Perez 9:31  

So lots of joints and muscles, (inaudible) both the most. But a quarter of our bones are in our, a quarter of our bones in our entire body are in our feet. And we have 33 joints in our feet. They're designed to move and be flexible. And it's, it's really, really incredible and intricate, but I use this foot model to show and for those that are listening, it's a model that shows the four layers of muscles to really give you a visual of how much muscle is in our feet. And how much we truly can strengthen that?


Lesley Logan 10:03  

Yeah, I, okay. So the reason you came up is because I was doing a lot of research on Joseph Pilates' accessories, because I'm doing his big accessory deck of flash cards. And my listeners know we've been talking about this a long time. I've been doing this. And so, like, there's all these, like, little toys and tools that he used to use, and one was marbles, and one was towels. And the marbles he would have you pick up a marble with your big toe, and then your second toe, and then your third, and your fourth and your fifth. And when I was doing the research, I could not pick up a marble with five different toes. I could do it with like two toes at a time, or these three toes over here. And I am proud to say when I was when I was actually having to film it, I was like, oh, one, and I did all five. I'm so proud of my feet. Like, over six months, I've, like, improved the dexterity of that. The towels is so hard, because I can scrunch it, but I couldn't flick it out. And, yes, I couldn't, I couldn't unravel the towel. And I'm like, what is going on? But so it's like, like, part like, the bottom part of my foot was strong, but maybe the top part of my foot wasn't so strong. So I have, like, so do you strengthen your toes? I don't think it's just by squeezing them, because I'm afraid, am I wrong about giving people hammer toes? Like, I don't want to do.


Dr. Jenifer Perez 11:11  

Such a good question. It's such a good question. Let's dive in a little bit, because this is one, one area where Joseph Pilates was so far ahead of the curve. But we have also learned a lot since his work, right? Yeah. 


Lesley Logan 11:28  

Thank God. Thank God, we've learned more. It's been a while. 


Dr. Jenifer Perez 11:31  

I love like using towel scrunches or marble pickups if we need to start somewhere, and that's what's going to do it for you, then do it. It's better than not doing anything, but in general, I tend to avoid those exercises. And the reason is because of hammertoes, you were totally right on the right track. So essentially, we have four sets of muscles that flex and extend our toes. So hammertoes is when the toes start to lift and curl over time. And if they stay in that position, they can become rigid and arthritic and really, really painful. They also were associated in that same study with an increase in fall risk as well, as well as bunions. And so what we want to do is activate the muscles, but with the toes in a long and flat and wide position. So, an alternative, something that you can do right now, if you're barefoot, is if you just lift up all 10 toes and then spread them out as wide as you can. And even if it feels like they're not listening to you, just keep telling them to spread and then reach them out long and wide and try to bring them back down to the ground. Hold that engagement, hold that press, and you should start to feel the arch underneath your foot start to activate. That's the muscle that's right here that I already took off my model.


Lesley Logan 12:51  

And it can activate even if you like, have flat feet, because I have people always who like to fight me on this, like, I have flat feet, it won't lift. And I'm like, I think the muscle still activates, guys.


Dr. Jenifer Perez 13:03  

Yes, yes, exactly. We can dive in to foot shape in a second, too. But the last piece of that exercise is, if you want to add a little bit more, just barely lift your heels like enough for a credit card. 


Lesley Logan 13:09  

Oh, that I haven't done. The spreading of the flick the lifting the toes, I love to teach. The spreading them out. I even try to get people to do one toe at a time, which, by the way, I can do it reverse pinky toe to big toe, but not big, for whatever reason, it's like big toe and then all four. But, so, okay, that's, I've not done the heel lift, okay.


Dr. Jenifer Perez 13:32  

Yeah, I think you can do to improve dexterity, improve activation of the muscles, rebuild the connection between our brain and our feet, because that's a big piece of it is because we don't use our feet. Many people, our feet are stuffed into cushy socks and cushy shoes and ignored all day long. They even have indoor shoes that they're wearing. 


Lesley Logan 13:52  

Yes, yes.


Dr. Jenifer Perez 13:52  

Our feet are ignored. Just even rebuilding that connection can be really important. But when I'm dealing with patients in pain, one of my big things, especially when it comes to trying to encourage them to walk and move past their barriers, is engaging the muscles in a way that we actually use in locomotion. And in the gait cycle, we activate the muscles of our feet in order to push off and move forward. That's why I really like that long press lift the heels, because that's exactly how we use those muscles in the walking gait cycle.


Lesley Logan 14:26  

Yeah, okay, love, love, I'm gonna send you, my friend has a, I take a Pilates session with a friend. He's an amazing teacher, and he's got a client he's been with for 10 years. The guy will not take his shoes off. He does yoga in shoes. His Pilates in shoes. He's like, if I take my shoes off, my feet hurt. I have plantar fasciitis and I, if I take them off, my feet hurt. And I was just like, you know, I think, I think they hurt because you don't take them off. I'm just, just something that, like, maybe you should.


Dr. Jenifer Perez 14:55  

Yeah, I mean that really like the first kind of knock on the door, but you're totally right. It is typical. Because people have felt pain. So then they get into orthotics or cushier shoes, shoes that really are designed to do the work for you, because it alleviates the pain. But then the golden rule of the musculoskeletal system is use it or lose it. So the longer that we're now in these shoes and these orthotics that are doing the work for us that may have been good in the short term, but in the long term, our feet start to atrophy more, and we become reliant on them, and then we need a more aggressive orthotic and a cushier shoe, and it just becomes this cycle that we have to eventually break. 


Lesley Logan 15:34  

Yeah, yeah. Thank you. Everyone, please re-listen to that. So a yoga teacher, he's like, the two worst inventions were shoes and chairs and, like, you know, they and I'm excited for Brad to listen to this, because he, he, he's been wearing Birkenstocks in the house because he was having, like, plantar fasciitis pain. But if he wear these Birkenstocks, he won't have it and I think that's fine. He's really good at spreading his toes. Like, this is not a knock on him. But I do get concerned, like, are we just like, not forcing the feet to do the job that they're supposed to do, even if they are Birkenstocks. And, you know, there's lots of information about they can be amazing, but I just sometimes worry, like, are we not giving his feet the opportunity to be strong on their own? 


Dr. Jenifer Perez 16:15  

Yeah, yeah, I would give Birkenstocks a B minus, for me, like, they're great because they're, they're a decently low stack height, so not, they're not really cushiony. They have a beautiful wide toe box so it allows your toes to spread, but they're very rigid, and they do have that arch support. So it kind of depends on what our goals are. If we do have an active diagnosis, active diagnosis, like plantar fasciitis, they can be helpful in alleviating that pain. But, again, on the flip side of that, we want to start strengthening our feet, because plantar fasciitis, you okay if I dive into plantar fasciitis? 


Lesley Logan 16:55  

I want you to do that because and then we're gonna get to bunions because of my own personal interest. 


Dr. Jenifer Perez 16:59  

Those are kind of the two that like, everybody (inaudible). 


Lesley Logan 16:54  

I think everyone's heard of. I think we can definitely, yeah, we don't have to go into, like Morton's neuroma, unless we have time. 


Dr. Jenifer Perez 17:01  

Plantar Fasciitis is and fasciitis means more of an inflammatory response. So we're talking about like short term acute pain. The kind of umbrella term is plantar fasciopathy, something going wrong with the plantar fascia. But essentially, the plantar fascia is best friends with this muscle right here, called our flexor digitorum brevis. 


Lesley Logan 17:20  

Okay. 


Dr. Jenifer Perez 17:21  

That muscle is one of the two muscles that presses our toes down, flexor digitorum brevis is the one that presses our toes down flat. Flexor digitorum longus is the one that curls our toes. 


Lesley Logan 17:32  

Got it. 


Dr. Jenifer Perez 17:32  

Right. Going back to our conversation before, when we lengthen the toes and press them, FDB is the one we're activating. The reason this matters with the plantar fascia is because when we go to push off, when we go to take a step and we push off of our foot, FDB is actually what gives us the elasticity to push off of. It's like the trampoline that we're pushing off of. But it has to be strong in order to do that. It has to be able to be, have tension. If it doesn't, we have to get tension from somewhere else. We get it from our next door neighbor, the plantar fascia. Every step we take, rather than using a strong FDB to push off of we're using the plantar fascia, and it becomes more and more irritated while we're on our feet, and then it kind of does this, like stiffening and recoil when we're off our feet, and the second we go to stand up again, that's when it's like, there's the pain again. So when it comes to plantar fascio, when it comes to plantar fasciopathy, the number one thing I'm looking at is strength, and how do we create a stable foot at push off.


Lesley Logan 18:37  

Yeah, okay. Thank you for that. I think that is really key, and it makes me that like one, because you start to watch people like, I don't watch people in the airports anymore because it's just too much. The posture, the head, head to the side, the heads hanging off of the bodies, like the hip over I'm like, I can't I cannot. They're not paying me. I can't do it. And my husband's just like, look at how that person's walking. Like, look at how that one foot, I'm like, babe, they're not asking for our help, yeah, put some blinders on. But he's like, what's (inaudible) I'm like, they don't, they can't, they no longer can roll through their foot. They're no longer, they're now they're kind of like, and that is going to limit you. That's going to affect falling, first of all, because it's not how you're supposed to walk. It's also going to affect knees, hips, back, like, it just a whole chain, right? I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but I always think of the feet is like, the shocks of the car and also the tires of the car, because, like, if they're off, then the whole body is off, right? 


Dr. Jenifer Perez 19:25  

That's actually an analogy we use all the time, is even with, like, performance athletes, right? Like, if you compare an athlete to a car, you can have the best performance car, sports car in the world, but if the tires don't work, it's not going anywhere, you know. Yeah. 


Lesley Logan 19:40  

Yeah, yeah, okay, let's talk bunions. You know, I obviously things have gotten wildly different, you know, like it used to be, don't get a bunion surgery, you'll never walk again. And now, like, people are getting bunion surgery and they are successful. But like, do we is everyone who gets a bunion, like, destined for surgery? Can you change that? Can you fix it? What do we got? 


Dr. Jenifer Perez 20:00  

Yeah, great questions. So first of all, for those that don't know what a bunion is, bunion is when we have a deviation of the first metatarsal, so the long bone that's behind the big toe starts to deviate outwards, and then the toe starts to deviate towards the other toes, and it creates this angle of what we call the first ray, which is the big toe and the first metatarsal, and then as this drifts outwards, we start to see a bump develop on the inside of that joint. Now that bump is not it's not arthritis, it's not a growth of the bone. It's actually the head of the metatarsal sticking out sideways. And so it's truly a joint dislocation that then we are walking on all day long. So when it comes to bunions, they come in different grades. So we have a mild, a moderate or a severe bunion. Mild to moderate bunions can absolutely be helped with conservative care. Conservative care being things like toe spacers, things like strengthening exercises, adjusting your shoes, working on building strength and stability. When we get past that moderate mark, that's when we start to have that discussion of, is surgery going to help? And there's also lots of different kinds of surgery out there. I'm in favor of never get a fusion unless you have to, because especially at the big toe, we have to be able to bend the big toe in order to walk, run, move, and if we can't, we're going to go somewhere else. And then, like you said, that is going to affect that whole chain. So that's kind of the brief thing of bunions. What else do you want to dive in? 


Lesley Logan 21:28  

Okay, so this is fascinating. So okay, I have a wide toe box, right? Like, we'll just get personal. I'm just, I think it's better to have an example. So a wide toe box always have, I have my father's feet, like, really, really narrow heels, super high arches, wide toe box, and I had a big space between my big toe, my four, my other four toes that no longer exists. My toe is now over, right? I use those amazing toe spacers. I do want to know if I'm supposed to put something in those little slits. So I use those. I'm like, kind of obsessed with them, because with them on, I can actually point my big toe when I don't have them on my big toe doesn't really point, like it go, it's straight, but it doesn't really like point with the foot. It's very fascinating to me when it's when it's in alignment, it's like doing a great job, which is probably what's, what has, what's happened. But because of all the footwork that I do, I mean, like I have, I do footwork on my Reformer with no padding, I have no pain. I do a lot of foot corrector, toe corrector, tons of stuff to really, like, keep my feet strong. But I am not like, I don't know. Maybe I'm like, expecting something that shouldn't happen. I'm not seeing a reduction of my bunion, nor is my big toe staying where it needs to be without the spacers. So is it just time? Is it daily homework? Like, what? What are people with bunions who have a minor to moderate supposed to do?


Dr. Jenifer Perez 22:43  

Yes, I love it. So couple of things there. So let's talk about you first, and then I'll talk about a different presentation, because there's kind of two different presentations of bunions and one would be kind of more the like, like you said, the high arch, more rigid foot type. There's another kind of bunion that happens in a more flexible low arch, flat foot, foot type. And so number one, when we're talking about bunions, it starts to be an instability in that joint. So although we can strengthen, although we can improve function and decrease pain, it's not always going to stay there. So even Dr. Conley, my business partner, she has a pretty significant bunion on her right foot. She wears her toe spacers all day long, every day, and if she doesn't, she doesn't get pain, not right away. If she didn't consistently, she probably would over the course of few weeks or a month. But if she doesn't, you can definitely see that bunion popping out more. So she uses them as a guide, because of that laxity that's developed in that joint. So it kind of depends on how far along that spectrum we are as to whether the big toe will stay there or not, because it can in definitely the more mild cases, but it just depends. Now talking about, kind of one piece of the puzzle that might be missing with everything that you mentioned, is with the more stiff foot presentation. So you're more high arch foot type. One of the really important jobs of our foot, like we said, there's 33 joints, it has to be able to move and dissociate and unlock. And sometimes what people with high arches have a hard time with, is pronation. We live in this more supinated position. The arch is higher up. And now when the foot comes down to the ground, since we can't move through the mid foot, which has all of these that are designed to twist, if I can't move through there because it's locked down, I'm going to move excessively through my forefoot, so we're basically making up for that motion in the forefoot, which can lead to that instability and that bunion. This is the same presentation as Dr. Conley, by the way.


Lesley Logan 24:51  

Oh, well, I mean, I'm in good company. But that makes a lot of sense, because, you know, I like, I've had to work really hard when I point my feet to not, is it like, like, supinate? Is it like? What do you mean? You, like, I like, I want to make sure that my don't have like, flippers. I have like, two feet. So I'm like, I'm pointing my feet, but the pinky toes are not coming towards each other. It's a really, it's a really big thing that I have to work on, because my ankles are so hyper mobile, so that, that makes a lot of sense, and got it. So I need to stretch. I need to actually let my arch stretch out.  


Dr. Jenifer Perez 25:23  

Let your feet relax. And it's also, it's kind of a learned response too. Like you said, if you have hypermobile ankles, sometimes what we'll do is we'll try to make up for finding stability with our feet, and then we just never let them relax. So the conversation used to always be like around pronation and like, pronation is the devil, but really, I see a pretty good 50-50, split of people who need strength and control of pronation versus people who need to learn how to relax their feet again and start to pronate. 


Lesley Logan 25:24  

Yeah. Okay, super fun. So you mentioned there's another, there's another type of bunion, though. 


Dr. Jenifer Perez 25:34  

So, basically, exactly the opposite. Okay, so now think about your more flat foot, foot type, more flexible foot type. What happens here is, because we don't have good control of the mid foot, we start to spill over into uncontrolled pronation. Again, pronation isn't the devil we just need to be able to control it. So now, when I spill over into uncontrolled pronation, you see how my forefoot starts to deviate, this way? 


Lesley Logan 26:21  

Yes, yes. I had a client who that's how his foot, he had callus. It was so bad. It was like. 


Dr. Jenifer Perez 26:26  

Like a callous on the inside of the big toe. Sometimes they'll even have it on the inside of the joint where it is, too. Those are called pinch calluses. And the reason they get them is because when the forefoot starts to deviate with that uncontrolled pronation. Now, when they go to push off, they're pushing off across the big toe, so they get a callus on the side of the toe, and that pushes their toe over towards the other toes, which can contribute to a bunion. The one thing we haven't mentioned across the board is absolutely footwear. Footwear 100% contributing to this as well, because your body can only move in the range of motion that's allowed. And if we are in footwear that has a triangular shaped toe, then it is bringing your toe towards the other toes. There's no way your toe can sit in alignment if it's in a shoe with a pointed toe box. 


Lesley Logan 27:16  

Yeah, I know I've had to, like, change all of my shoes. I keep my my high heels for my wedding that I'll never put on ever again. I don't think my feet would even fit in them at this point, but I like, keep them for just like the look of it. But like, I am a tennis shoe. Like, if I if I can't wear tennis shoes, we are really in trouble. I have one pair of, like, really wide toe box clogs, and I'm like, okay, if I have to wear dressy shoes, we will put these on and. 


Dr. Jenifer Perez 27:39  

Well, I mean, there's also, like, more and more and more options coming out. So like at our website, Gait Happens, we have a whole list of footwear that has a wide toe box, but for example, so for those again, watching so, I mean, you look at more of like a traditional flat even, and you have this absolutely pointed toe box. Imagine your big toe in this position. Your big toe is supposed to be here.


Lesley Logan 28:02  

Because it's straight up, and it's going literally across the middle of your foot.


Dr. Jenifer Perez 28:04  

Right? And now we're going to bend on that joint, yes, imagine a door that's hung crooked, and then we just decide to open it 10,000 times a day. 


Lesley Logan 28:05  

Right. 


Dr. Jenifer Perez 28:13  

So it just is basically, really harming that joint. But there's options out there that you can have a shoe that's similar, but with a wide toe box. I mean, same thing with looking at, like, more of your daily tennis shoes or your running shoes, right? Like, there's options that have a wide toe box out there. I also have, like, I got these (inaudible) loafers that I am loving, and I could not find them this morning, I'm so upset. 


Lesley Logan 28:41  

Someone stole them from you. They're so good. Okay. We all have to go, like, scour your website before you buy new shoes, because that is, that is the thing. Like, my feet do not have pain. You don't have any issues. But if I put on a pair of shoes where it's going to put my toe in the wrong spot, then I am going to have pain. Like, that's when I have it. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, you know? I mean, like footwear. So basically, we're outsourcing the natural gait of our body to a footwear, which is then affecting how our rest of our day goes, but then also how our bodies feel in the future.


Dr. Jenifer Perez 29:15  

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, our bodies conform to shapes. We've seen that with foot binding in history, we've seen that with the whale bone corsets. We've seen that with the neck elongation, our body will conform to a shape if you put it in that shape, and it is not any different when it comes to the foot. 


Lesley Logan 29:33  

Yeah, yeah. Okay. So, so how often should we be paying attention to our feet? Like, is this something we're supposed to do? Because, you know, people, everyone has, I don't have enough time. They barely have enough time to work out, like, how how often should they do foot exercises? How should they be thinking about their feet? What do we got?


Dr. Jenifer Perez 29:49  

So as much as you can give me, I mean, I'm very realistic, right? If you're having pain, then spend more time on this, because it really does impact your life. But if we're just talking about the average person looking for prevention and longevity, then how about we just start with going barefoot a little bit like let your feet be feet. Go barefoot around the house. Let's get rid of the house shoes. Let's maybe go walk on a few different surfaces outside when it's warm enough and not snowing, like it is here, you know. So just let your feet be feet, and then you can do stuff like adding toe spacers. If you're concerned about the spacing between your toes. We like the toe spacers that we have because you can wear them while you're moving around.


Lesley Logan 30:31  

They're, they're amazing. I actually will just say, like, I wear them just to walk around my house. And I thought maybe they won't stay in because like, of how they are. No, they stay. I also wear them doing yoga. I wear them doing Pilates. I don't have to have socks with them on. Like, you know, sometimes I have to adjust it a little bit. But, like, it's actually, they're really amazing, and they fit in almost all my shoes. And when they don't fit, I'm like, hmm, maybe these shoes, maybe these shoes need to go get donated.


Dr. Jenifer Perez 30:56  

Yeah. So, I mean, just simple tips to honestly, like, if you're going to be doing a ton of walking, maybe you just roll your foot out on a ball afterwards, give it a little bit of love. Maybe add a little bit of foot activation before a workout. If you know you're going to be doing, like single leg workout or things like that, there's, there's a ton of small things that you could do to add foot health into your day, and part of it is just the awareness. Go walk around your hallway after listening to this or wherever you are, and actually think about reaching your toes long and engaging your toes with each step, and see how different that is from how you've been walking for the last 10 years.


Lesley Logan 31:32  

Yeah, you know, this fascinates me, because I will sometimes see, okay, like, you know, people wear flip flops at the airport and they're like, pinky toe doesn't touch the ground. And I was like, isn't it supposed to touch the ground? Like, were they born like that? Did they like change their body like, what happened? Why is their pinky toe not on the ground? 


Dr. Jenifer Perez 31:50  

To your point, I can't look at a lot of people in the airport anymore, but I do celebrate with people when I see them in shoes that I do approve of, because it's so far and few between. So I'm like, hey, nice Altras. And they're like, that was weird.


Lesley Logan 32:04  

I, you know what? I love that we just had an amazing guest on who was talking about, like, your bubble of influence. And like, like, just giving a stranger a compliment is, like, affecting your bubble of influence. And like, you are doing that within what your influence wants to be. So I, I'm, I'm all in on that. This is so fascinating. I think, you know, I just, I think a lot of times people think about the way our media has trained us is like, think about your abs, or the abs that will like, the muscles that will tone your, the exercise will tone your core, these will tone your arms. And I'm always just like, because I get asked these all the time, and I tell my publicist, I'm like, I gotta talk about, like, their, are their feet aligning like it does, like their hips, we have so many things to talk about before they even do the sit up like, there's just like, and it's not that I'm a nitpicky person. I'm not. I'm kind of like, safe, ugly movement is fine, you know, as long as it's not dangerous. But we're so obsessed with like, from the waist up that we're not really focusing on like, really where some of the root problems are and where we have a lot of control, which is like our foot choices, our shoe choices, like walking around our house barefoot, giving our feet some love.


Dr. Jenifer Perez 33:07  

Yeah, I think it all comes down to what are your goals? Right? Are your goals to live fast, die hard, whatever, right? If you if your goal is, I want a six pack and I want to enjoy my life for whatever that looks like. Great. If your goal is I want to go climb Machu Picchu, or I want to be able to run into my 70s and 80s, then we need to have a conversation that looks very different around supporting that longevity and that movement potential. 


Lesley Logan 33:35  

Yeah, yeah, you're amazing. Okay. I mean, I could talk to you for hours, but we're gonna take a brief break and find out how people can find you, follow you, work with you and your Be It Action Items. 


Dr. Jenifer Perez 33:51  

Perfect. 


Lesley Logan 33:45  

All right. Dr. Jen Perez, where do you hang out? Where can people like, if people, I know you're in a place that snows, but like, can people work with you who don't live near you? Like, what? What do you have? 


Dr. Jenifer Perez 33:54  

So, great question. So first of all, we have lots of free resources. So our Instagram account is Gait Happens, G-A-I-T Happens. And we have thousands of videos on there. We also are expanding our YouTube as well. So Gait Happens on YouTube, lots of free videos, lots of things to check out there. If you're wanting a more personalized approach. So for those that are worldwide, we, our team does virtual consultations. I don't personally do virtual consultations anymore, but we have a whole team of practitioners that do. We also have DIY programs, like a 12-week Fit Feet program. If you'd rather just get a program that you do on your own, but if you do want to come work with me, I am in Colorado. I'm in Kinetic Chiropractic is my clinic in Lafayette, Colorado, and I have people fly in all the time, and then we can do follow up appointments virtually, but we do that first appointment together. 


Lesley Logan 34:46  

That's so cool. I have to see if that's on the way to Aurora, because that's where, that's my next trip into Colorado. So okay, I mean, I feel like you've given us a lot, but I just want to like for our people who are like, okay, what's my first next step? No pun intended. Bold, executable, intrinsic or targeted steps people can take to be it it till they see it, what do you have for us?


Dr. Jenifer Perez 35:08  

I love it. I have two kind of challenges, I would say. One that can be immediate and one that's for the next time you buy shoes. So, the immediate challenge is go barefoot for five minutes. That's it doesn't require any equipment. Just take your shoes off. And if you're not already going barefoot, and if you're already going barefoot, then I challenge you to go barefoot for five minutes on new textures. So if you're already going barefoot at home, go outside, go walk in the grass, go walk over some stones, let your feet start to discover texture and movement over surfaces again. And if you're not going barefoot, then start by going on those soft surfaces for five minutes, let your feet move and feel. So that's my, my number one. You can do this right after this. And then my number two is the next time that you buy a pair of shoes, I challenge you to not only buy a pair of shoes that may look a little different than you're used to because they have a nice, beautiful, wide toe box that lets your foot move, but I challenge you to buy something that's a little less shoe, and what I mean by that is less aggressive, so less stiff, less arch support, less cushion, less shoe than you think that you need just step it down a little bit, because that's going to challenge your feet to do a little bit more of the work.


Lesley Logan 36:33  

Yes, I'm in on all of this. I love this so much. Dr. Jen Perez from Gait Happens, thank you. This was a dream interview I wanted to do since I've stumbled upon you and all that you're doing. And I just think it's really amazing. And I know for a fact, if you're an OPC member, you guys, come on. You have to, you have to go check this out. It's gonna be part of your like, we always, I always say, like, your feet are connected to your seat. Like, that's, you know, and it's you know, that's really is. And people challenge. I've had people literally tell me I was doing the Toe Corrector with rubber bands. I was just showing people like, you don't have to buy fancy things. You can just use rubber bands. Here's what I'm doing, and it connects to the seat. And I had trainers of the wazoo going, that's not how your like, glutes work. And I was like, okay, I don't know how you study for anatomy, and that's fine, but I'm gonna tell you right now you obviously haven't done it, because if you do the exercises correctly, you can't help but feel your butt work like the outer hips work, the hand, everything is like turning on so they are connected, maybe not directly, because your feet are not touching your seat.


Dr. Jenifer Perez 37:29  

Absolutely. I actually have a fun party trick that I will do with trainers when I'm working with trainers, and I have them lay on their stomach and extend their leg behind them with their their knee bent, and then you down on their thigh. And what this is doing is it's a muscle test for your hips. So it's like, if you're, you've got strong hips that should be nice and strong. So I have them do that barefoot. And it's usually like, okay, great. That was awesome. You were able to not let me press down. And then I take my other hand and I squish their toes together, and I press down, and it goes because you you can't when your toes are squished together, it affects the whole chain. Now, can I explain that neurologically? No, I cannot, but I can tell you that it works every time I do it.


Lesley Logan 38:13  

Yeah, I think, you know, I think we'll get the neuro I mean, it's just going to take time for us, especially in this western society where everything's kind of siloed to like, see how it all connects, you know, but it is connected. And if you can feel it, then, like, we don't actually need the science right now to prove that what you're feeling is true. So someday, someday, well, you are doing the Lord's work. I really think so. And thank you so much for being here with us today. Everyone, how are you going to use these tips in your life? Are you gonna go buy a new pair of shoes with this in mind? Are you going to go walk around barefoot? Please tag Gait Happens. Tag the Be It Pod and share this with a friend, especially your friends who are complaining about your feet. You know who those people are? They tell you all the time. So make sure the ones that take their shoes off at the club, which is a little not okay, please don't do that. I live in Las Vegas, and I'll see people walking barefoot. I'm like, I don't think you want to do that here. That's, don't do it there. Anyways, until next time, Be It Till You See It. 


Lesley Logan 39:10  

That's all I got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It Podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate the show and leave a review and follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to your podcast. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over at the Be It Pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us and others Be It Till You See It. Have an awesome day. Be It Till You See It is a production of The Bloom Podcast Network. If you want to leave us a message or a question that we might read on another episode, you can text us at +1-310-905-5534 or send a DM on Instagram @BeItPod.


Brad Crowell 39:54  

It's written, filmed, and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan, and me, Brad Crowell.


Lesley Logan 39:59  

It is transcribed, produced and edited by the epic team at Disenyo.co.


Brad Crowell 40:03  

Our theme music is by Ali at Apex Production Music and our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi.


Lesley Logan 40:10  

Special thanks to Melissa Solomon for creating our visuals.


Brad Crowell 40:14  

Also to Angelina Herico for adding all of our content to our website. And finally to Meridith Root for keeping us all on point and on time.



Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/be-it-till-you-see-it/donations

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy