691. Nobody Really Teaches You How to Leave a Job

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45:14

School teaches you how to land a job, but no one teaches you how to leave one. In this episode, Lesley Logan reunites with longtime friend, novelist, and PhD candidate Clare Solly to talk through what most career advice skips: how to actually walk out the door. They cover how to know when it's time to go, how to figure out if you can afford to leave, how to rehearse the resignation conversation, and what to do when you're the one being let go. Whether you're eyeing the exit or recovering from a layoff, this conversation gives you the words and the plan to move forward without losing yourself.

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In this episode you will learn about:

  • What jealousy of your friends' jobs reveals about you.
  • How to know if you can afford to leave your job.
  • What to expect when you tell them you're quitting.
  • Why staying graceful matters even when you're fired.
  • The exit plan you can write before you ever need it.


Episode References/Links:


Guest Bio:

Clare Solly is a modern day Renaissance woman living in New York City. She is an actress, writer, national pageant queen, and by day she is an executive assistant. She has published three books: The Time Turner, Christmas and Cleats and Save The Last Piece. Clare runs two theatre companies in NYC: The Bechdel Group and Company of Fools Theatre where she loves to foster and challenge new writers. She also is an avid bookstagrammer who grew her followers to almost 11K in 5 months time.



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Episode Transcript:

Clare Solly 0:00  

So we learn how to do a job in school, and then we learn how to sort of kind of interview for a job, but nobody ever tells you how to leave a job, like how to quit, how to prepare for leaving a job, yeah, how to like deal with being in between jobs, like no one trained you for that.


Lesley Logan 0:18  

Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast, where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I'm Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I've trained 1000s of people around the world, and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self-doubt. My friends, action brings clarity, and it's the antidote to fear. Each week, my guests will bring bold, executable, intrinsic, and targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and be it till you see it. It's a practice, not a perfect. Let's get started. 


Lesley Logan 1:01  

All right, Be It babe, get ready to totally listen to two friends talking about a topic that we had a lot of fun talking about without you. We're like, we should turn on a recording device and some microphones and lighting and share this with you, because I keep getting great guests who talk about leaving the thing you don't love and doing the thing you love, and it's like, okay, but how? And some people have given some nice things, but I've always just felt like, as a person who's very action-oriented, who's very much like, "Tell me the first next step, because if I can get the first next step, then I can get the second next step." I wanted to have an episode for you like that. And so we have Clare Solly back on the pod. You've heard her on recaps, if you have been listening to this pod for a long time, you've even heard her on episodes if you've really been with us since starting episode 19, and now you can hear us talk about exit strategies and how to exit things. So here is Clare Solly. 


Lesley Logan 1:47  

Hey, Be It babe. Welcome back to the Be It Till You See It podcast. I am so excited because I have Clare Solly back, and we just wrapped two recap episodes. You've been on the pod, we've had two interviews with you on the pod, correct?


Clare Solly 2:00  

I think two interviews, and I've done several recaps.


Lesley Logan 2:03  

Month of recaps for me.


Clare Solly 2:06  

Yeah.


Lesley Logan 2:07  

It was so fun. I was like, what are people gonna say? You know what? They loved it, the listeners stayed the same.


Clare Solly 2:11  

You know what? I will sit and chat with you forever and ever and ever, because we've been friends for a million years. But it was also really fun to do Brad recaps.


Lesley Logan 2:19  

Oh, just to talk about Brad. I listened to him because I was like, I wonder what they're talking about. But you know what's really nice? I often think about, like, what if I need someone to stand in for me, you know, like with OPC we have enough recordings that we could just replay them and people would be like, send us our favorite ones and we'll just replay those. But for the pod, if it's not me, Brad could do some interviews, but you can always step in, which is great. It's so wonderful.


Clare Solly 2:45  

Redheads, so it works.


Lesley Logan 2:46  

It really does. It really does. We're both, we're both redheads. So Claire's here, and we were like chit chatting, while you know, she was on the shake plate, I was on the red light. We're talking about, like, I've had a lot of guests on the podcast talk about, like, exiting, like it's okay to leave things, and I have found that the answers to a lot of my guests, when I'm like, okay, but how do you leave, have been kind of not helpful, yeah, like, I love my guests, and I, and I get it, like, especially if you just ended something, you might not be able to describe how you did that, and also sometimes the ends of things are embarrassing, like, yeah, you know, like, whether you wanted to end them or they were ended for you, or I will say, like, some of the.. we're talking more about exiting jobs, but I will say, like, exiting relationship, I sucked at the only time I have ever broken up with someone? I did the worst job doing it, absolute worst, the absolute worst job, like just terrible job, terrible job at it. And it's because, like, I never broken up with anybody. I kind of also didn't date enough to, yeah, to get broken up, and I feel like one of my breakups was more of a ghost team.


Clare Solly 4:00  

Yeah, I kind of had that too. I kind of had that,


Lesley Logan 4:02  

So like, to like sit down and like tell someone, and like I guess you'll never have a good answer for why you're ending something, really. So like I just didn't have a good answer, and I just kept going, okay, so I'm gonna go.


Clare Solly 4:14  

Yeah.


Lesley Logan 4:16  

So anyways, I so I think like I think exiting things is a muscle. I think like learning how to exit things, it


Clare Solly 4:21  

absolutely is. We learn how to do a job in school, and then we learn how to sort of kind of interview for a job, but nobody ever tells you how to leave a job, like how to quit, how to prepare for leaving a job. Yeah, how to like deal with being in between jobs, like no one trained you for that.


Lesley Logan 4:39  

Well, and there's like some sort of, sometimes there's shame, there's embarrassment, there's all these things. First, before we get into this, I did a terrible job.


Clare Solly 4:46  

You heard it first on this episode, everybody.


Lesley Logan 4:48  

You know what, guys, I'm also.. I'll just be really honest with my B. A pod listeners, so I've been.. I've been diagnosed with the ADHD that you all knew I had before I had it. So today is the first day on medication, and I am just. Seeing how I'm doing, and so clearly it's doing something. It's not helping me, it's not helping me be more organized. She looks great. I'm supposed to say, Claire Solly, will you tell everyone who you are and what do you rock at?


Clare Solly 5:14  

My name is Clare Solly. I rock at pretty much anything I try, and if I don't, I rock at trying to figure out how not to be too terribly disappointed. I am a quadruple six tuple hyphenate. I am an actress, singer in New York City, have a day job that I really find a lot of crazy fun in. I'm also a novelist, for those of you that have listened to podcasts with me on it before. New news in my life: I've actually gone back to school, and I'm working on getting a PhD in creative writing. 


Lesley Logan 5:46  

I can't wait to call you Dr. Clare Solly.


Clare Solly 5:48  

Oh my god, can I tell you, I read this meme the other day, that once I have my doctorate, I'm so excited to order something and have it come in and be like, look, this is what the doctor ordered. It's such a dad joke that I will totally use in my life. I have three self-published novels, you can find them on Amazon and Barnes and Noble. They're women's fiction. I run with theater companies in New York City and do all kinds of things, so I'm all over the place and making magic happen.


Lesley Logan 6:22  

So we met at a job.


Clare Solly 6:24  

We met at a job. I actually hired you at a job, pretty much.


Lesley Logan 6:27  

I remember thinking you were standing on an elevated step when I brought my application in, but no, you're just a giant.


Clare Solly 6:34  

Yeah, because I was behind a counter and I came around. I remember you looking me up and down and going, oh, that's you.


Lesley Logan 6:42  

I thought she was on an elevated platform, but she was just wearing heels.


Clare Solly 6:48  

Yep.


Lesley Logan 6:49  

And so we got to work together, we opened a business together, we had a shoe company together for two years. Fun fact about me, I used to design shoes. I should keep that as part of my two truths and a lie. 


Clare Solly 7:09  

Shoe designer right here. And we spent long nights and long days sitting together and laughing our asses off and drinking.


Lesley Logan 7:17  

Oh my god, yeah, that was crazy. And probably because we're high on glue, we used deck varnish to make these shoes you guys have no idea.


Clare Solly 7:27  

By the way, if anybody out there has a pair of Snip and Tuck shoes. 


Lesley Logan 7:31  

Snip and Tuck's Opinionated Shoes. 


Clare Solly 7:33  

Oh that's right. Snip and Tuck's Opinionated Shoes. If somebody has a pair of those still in existence, please write into the pod. I need pictures of them.


Lesley Logan 7:43  

I'm gonna pull them. I think I kept a shoe from each of the ones that I had. Yeah because I'm not wearing them so I was like I'm not going to keep both. I'll find it in the closet for you. My sister still has a pair.


Clare Solly 7:54  

Oh my gosh, I didn't keep mine because I've moved too many times.


Lesley Logan 8:01  

Same. That's why I think I have a shoe from each pair. But anyways, we were talking about this because I interviewed a woman and she talked about the pros and cons, like how much it costs you to stay in the thing you're in. So Clare, how many jobs, you've counted your jobs, I haven't counted mine, so how many jobs have you had?


Clare Solly 8:18  

Well, actually counting Snip and Tuck, if we count self-employment, I've had 34, I've worked for 34 different companies or people, because I've worked for private families. 


Lesley Logan 8:29  

Oh my god, I worked at a coffee shop, I worked at a doctor's office, then I worked where we worked together, and then I worked for a high-end fitness company.


Clare Solly 8:38  

Did you work for that? Remember we had that friend that we worked with, that and had a separate job, and did you ever go work for her at all? No? Okay.


Lesley Logan 8:45  

Then I worked for myself, and it was Snip and Tuck's. And that's all I've had. 


Clare Solly 8:55  

Have you worked, you've worked for two gyms or just one?


Lesley Logan 8:57  

Just the just the one gym, just by, but here's the thing, in the job we worked together, I did every job, every job, and then.


Clare Solly 9:06  

We can count that as 20, if you want.


Lesley Logan 9:07  

Yeah, yeah, so that, well, that's like four, four, five classes.


Clare Solly 9:10  

Becaus you had five different positions in that.


Lesley Logan 9:12  

Yeah, cashier, sales, key holder, assistant manager, manager, and then I was hoping to be like an area manager, but then you know, life, and then at the fitness company I was an instructor and a manager and a teacher trainer, and then a regional manager, and as a group fitness instructor. So we're at like 20 jobs, yeah, yeah, we'll go there. So anyways, I feel more like an elder millennial now that I'm at 20, but like some of them I can most I can say, like I left the coffee shop job in a fine way, I left the doctor's office job at a fine way, but I'm not sure. 


Clare Solly 9:42  

The coffee shop, they wouldn't let you go home for breaks in college, and they were always asking you to pick up shifts. You were beloved at that coffee shop.


Lesley Logan 9:52  

Yeah, I know. And I actually, when my in-laws got us an espresso machine, Brad was reading the directions like, I know what I'm doing.


Clare Solly 10:00  

Yesterday, when you were like, 'Do you know how to work a coffee machine? I was like, 'Nope, but you do.'


Lesley Logan 10:04  

I know. So, but I can say, like, you know, those jobs ended because I moved, and so it was like, "Of course, they know I was." Yeah, the other jobs were... I felt like I owed them more when I was leaving, versus, like, "Oh, this is just a job." You know what I mean? But I feel like, because I give my all, I kind of felt like I owe... maybe I should give them a month's notice, maybe I should give two months' notice. So let's talk about, you know, what should you be thinking about if you're exiting on your own terms?


Clare Solly 10:36  

I think you need to think about the value of yourself, what it is, like, what your skills are, right? This is also kind of helping you gear your mind towards rebuilding your resume and refocusing, like, what you want to do. Also, this is sort of tangential, but just stick with me for a second. When you find yourself jealous of your friends, especially with things that they do in their job, or specifically how their life revolves around their job, look at what that jealousy actually is, right? So you run your own business. I have another friend who runs her own business. I'm not afraid to say this, I'm jealous of both of you. And why is that? Because I like the freedom, the freedom, air quotes, I like the perceived freedom that I think that you have. I like the ability. 


Lesley Logan 11:21  

I laugh because we're sitting here recording this podcast because I have a schedule and I have deadlines, and we can do this today, but it's a perceived freedom. Yes, you choose your boss. 


Clare Solly 11:30  

Well, and that you get to travel, which that one is true, that you get to travel and you get paid for it for the most part. What else? I like... well, we'll just stick with those. Those three things are enough. Okay, so then I need to take that back and say, oh, that jealousy... oh, I actually would like a job where I travel, where I have a perceived freedom, a.k.a. I don't need to be lashed to a desk from eight to five, Monday through Friday. I want to do some things where maybe I'm out in the world doing things, and I work at a desk a couple of days a week, right? So look at yourself and not only what you value, but what skills do you have, do I have—we'll just use me—that can get me to where I want to be, right? So I can't magically leave my desk job and then go travel the world and make money, but I have to go figure out things like you did back when you were at the company we both worked at.


Lesley Logan 12:24  

Yeah.


Clare Solly 12:24  

And you went and you were taking classes, and then those classes turned into trainings, and then you went and educated yourself while you were making the money to do so. I mean, listen, if you want to be a babe and you want to like just quit your job tomorrow and run off into the sunset and go make magic happen, as whatever you want to do, live your best life.


Lesley Logan 12:47  

I do think that, depending on where you are in your life, there's different opportunities to blow things up versus not.


Clare Solly 12:53  

Oh, yeah, and in my 40s, I give very few (inaudible).


Lesley Logan 12:56  

Yeah, yeah. And I will say, like, I kind of blew up my life as far as personal life goes. I've never, I'm not someone who's ever blown up my life when it comes to the money I make, because I wasn't raised with a lot, and so for me, I want to be, when it comes to exiting things, I've always made sure I had a runway. So when I was,I actually, the job that we had together, I actually thought I would just be there like two days a week, because I thought I could do that. I thought, I'll do the two days a week, and that means I can keep my customers and keep my clients, my commission, my extra money. And then I'll have this business. And what happened is they were going to fire another salesperson so I could be the two-day-a-week, they were going to fire the other two-day-a-weeker, and I was like, oh, and it made me go, but she really needs this job. I need this job too, but also I have enough clients, and the company that I was teaching at part-time on top of my private Pilates business was going to, I knew they were going to offer me a management job, so if push came to shove, I knew I could just accept that job and reclaim that money in some way. So I actually decided to fully quit there versus do a little slowly stop working for them, because I just didn't want someone to lose their job, especially in early 2010. That just felt like that's a hard thing for her to go and replace. But when I left the fitness company, what I did is I figured out how much, I love your description of, like, what are you jealous of? It's also like, what are you finding you're resenting, like when people email and you're just like, you have instant irritation. And so for me, I felt even though they didn't think, and my friends who still work for them, they don't feel like it's a beck and call. It felt like to me it was a beck and call, clearly my ADHD signs, but really a beck and call to me. And so what I decided was, I sat down, it's like, okay, if I want to give up this job, how many Pilates clients would I need to have to replace this salary? And that salary included health benefits, that included my 401k, all these different things that I really think about. But then when you do the math, it really helped me go, okay, so I need to get this many clients coming twice a week. But what's the reality with how many hours I have to do that with? And so I had to go, okay, at the point that I get five clients who come two times a week, I can quit the salaried part of the job, and so I was able to go. I'm no longer going to manage, but I still taught there, was still a teacher trainer. And then it took me one year from that to let go of all of it. So I will say, like, if you do have the control, give if you need a runway, because money is a thing that you don't have extras of, an abundance of, to go remake yourself. It's really figuring out, like, the skills you'll need to have, the money you need to have, and knowing the numbers. I think that really puts you in a power position. I actually felt really confident letting go of that.


Clare Solly 15:52  

Yeah, and to, you know, add kind of to the money conversation, make sure you have a little bit more runway than you actually think that you'll need. Staying in a job that you hate for one more month is not going to be terrible compared to the two months you might be out of work and are panicking because you're like, where's the money going to come from?


Lesley Logan 16:11  

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. We had somebody who wanted to start her own business, and she... but her current job was just really, really stressful, really exhausting, and so Brad and I were like, "Hey, let's be honest, how much are you making here? Okay." So I looked up, I'm like, "If you worked at Starbucks 20 hours a week, you can make 80% of what you're making at this job." Yeah, so could you live off 80% of what you're making, right? Could you... I don't know your numbers, I don't know what that is. Maybe you need to, for the next three months, you just actually try to live off 80% and you bank up some money, right? And then you go find a job where you clock in and out, right? You just clock in and out—like no one who works at Starbucks is thinking about mochas when they leave, like they're not, right? Like, maybe a manager is, but I'm not saying that, I'm saying, like a barista, like just going in. So find a job that is actually not stressful, or where you get to leave the job when you're there, and then you can build your thing. If you can't do what I was able to do, which is like slowly leave away, is there a way that you can live off a little less money and do a different job that you could just leave it there? But I.


Clare Solly 17:21  

Now that's really smart.


Lesley Logan 17:22  

I think that it's always better if you can do it on your own timing. But yes, I agree, you need a little bit more money than you think, and you might want to start thinking, like, how can I make myself live on less money so I can be banking it, so I could have that runway, that two months' savings you have for rent and things like that.


Clare Solly 17:38  

Yeah, I like the strategy of having like a standby job. Let's talk about quitting.


Lesley Logan 17:44  

Yes.


Clare Solly 17:44  

That's like, how do you quit, right?


Lesley Logan 17:46  

Because, okay, wait, we made the plans, but now we have to tell them we're quitting. 


Clare Solly 17:52  

Which is is terrifying, terrifying.


Lesley Logan 17:54  

Thank you for saying that. I thought I was the only person who's just like, oh my god, I know something that they don't know.


Clare Solly 17:58  

No, the best thing you can do is like almost get together with a friend and rehearse.


Lesley Logan 18:04  

Okay. Okay.


Clare Solly 18:05  

So we've made our plan like whatever it is, you know, you make sure that you've got enough money, that you've got sort of a runway, you make sure that if you have the friends or the family that are able to support you emotionally, mentally, whatever, you might just make sure that's part of your setup of moving forward. And then I, it's funny, I want to go in and quit always. I do these steps, I have found, because I've also done the thing where I'm like, "I'm moving," and pretended that I had a fake reason to leave a job. I've done that, and that doesn't feel good. The best thing to do is to go in, figure out kind of a script for yourself, and also be prepared to have them have different reactions. Like, they could ask you to stay and give you more money, so if you obviously hate the job, but money was your reason for leaving, maybe you might want to consider that, so be prepared for that as a conversation. Be prepared for them to just not care whatsoever. And then people also don't like any kind of leaving separation, whatever; they kind of can lash out at you, which is why it feels terrifying, because you're like, oh my god, they're going to hate me forever. You're leaving the job; they might hate you for a month or two, but they won't care.


Lesley Logan 19:25  

Also like, if they're going to hate you forever, do you really want to work there?


Clare Solly 19:29  

Exactly.


Lesley Logan 19:30  

I mean, that is terrifying. Like, I don't want anyone to feel unsafe, but I really think, like, really ask yourself, if someone's going to hate you forever, do you really want to work for someone just because they'll like you? I do like the idea of playing... like Brad did that with me. I was leaving when I was leaving the fitness job, because I was in management and all these things. He was like, "Well, what if they ask you that they're going to pay you more?" And I had to really think about that, but I also knew I'll just take every promotion someone gives me. So, to be honest, I was literally quitting so they wouldn't offer me another promotion.


Clare Solly 20:00  

Yeah, I mean, and that's hard, because it's like ultimately you're like, oh, well, things seem to be getting better, so maybe this is... which is why you should be prepared for it, because if you really don't like the actual job you're in, or the company that you're in, there's nothing wrong with that. You have just outgrown that space.


Lesley Logan 20:19  

Well, that's the thing, like leaving a job is like leaving any relationship, and I think, especially as women, we're not taught that. Like, you can leave friends behind. I think fondly of the friendships I had in elementary, high school, college, you know, even the friendships I had at different jobs, but I don't think that the version of me today could be friends with the version of them... you know, maybe we could be friends today, but we outgrew each other at some point. And maybe we could have reconnected, and I'm not saying that we never will, we might, we might run into each other, but I do think that people think we have to keep all of these people all the time, and so you've outgrown the position. Now, if you are someone who's like, oh my gosh, they're going to give me more money for staying, and you're like, "I could handle this for six more months," and you don't have another thing, then there's nothing wrong with staying and banking up more money, like that's fine too. But I do think that rehearsing that, so you know... and so Brad was like, "If they offer you more money, what are you doing?" I said, "I still need to go. I can't keep going the way this is going, and I already have a good thing lined up, and I'm going to bet on myself." Also, I kind of figured they would just hire me back if I needed to.


Clare Solly 21:25  

Some jobs can, some jobs can, but yeah, definitely. Like, you should wrap your mindset, and I'm not saying... I'm a chronic overthinker, so I'm not promoting overthinking quitting, but at the same time, make sure you are ready for the different options to be thrown at you.


Lesley Logan 21:42  

So maybe they might be like, "Okay, great, bye," and you might be like, oh. And the other thing is, depending on the state you live in, you might not get to finish the time.


Clare Solly 21:50  

Yeah.


Lesley Logan 21:50  

That you have. so I just want to say, be strategic about that, because I worked for a company where if someone put their notice in, the soonest.


Clare Solly 22:00  

You get walked out the door.


Lesley Logan 22:01  

Yes, as soon as we could legally give you the paycheck that we could owe you, we would let you go, yeah. And that's not because we didn't like you; it's actually because the transition process was a lot better, and the liability, all these different things. Like, I remember when we worked at the store, if someone gave us their two weeks


Clare Solly 22:16  

Yeah. 


Lesley Logan 22:16  

For the most part.


Clare Solly 22:17  

It's awkward too.


Lesley Logan 22:18  

For the most part, they were pretty much like, okay, we can have a paycheck to them by tomorrow. What's the schedule? Okay. And we literally, they would come in for that day, and I'd go, "Thank you so much for the day you just had. Here's your final pay, it includes today, you know?" They would FedEx it to the store so I could give it to them, and I


Clare Solly 22:36  

Forgot about that, actually.


Lesley Logan 22:37  

Yeah, and we would live short-handed, because, honestly, it wasn't even personal to them. Putting the business owner hat on, they could steal, there's different things they could do, they could try to spend the next two weeks seeing their customers' information. So there's all these different things about protecting, and that back then, like, we remember, we had the customers' phone numbers and credit cards book, yeah. So there's a lot of information to protect at the fitness place. We wanted to transition the clients as quickly as possible, so we would do that. So I would just say, be mindful of where you're at, because it might be that it might end sooner than you were ready. Yeah, when I tried to exit a rental situation, the contract meant that I didn't have to give them any notice, but they also could just kick me out at any time. We were friends, so I thought they would honor that we're friends, and I wanted... I could see that they were turning away other renters, and I was their number one renter. So I was like, "Hey, these are my friends, I want to let them know, you guys, in four months I'm going to open up my own space, just so I can film whenever I want to. It's not personal." They seemed really, really fine about it, and then three months later they weren't fine.


Clare Solly 23:42  

Yeah.


Lesley Logan 23:43  

I don't know what changed. I know what changed now, but at the time I didn't know it changed, and so they literally kicked me out. And I had a month before my equipment was going to show up, and I had the studio, I didn't have a trash can. I had to text all my clients like, "Come to this space, we're moving in early." And then I called all my Pilates friends, and I borrowed equipment from them, and I made it work for a month. So I was, I mean, I'm pretty good to move on my resource, I'm so resourceful, Aquarian with ADHD, like, when the shoe drops, I am so much better than when everything is good. But you just don't know, so you just need to take... I would write down, what would I do if this happened? What would I do? What's the worst-case scenario? And also, here's the thing, the worst-case scenario rarely happens, but even if it did, have a backup plan for that. I think it's helpful.


Clare Solly 24:30  

Yeah, and like, I'm also kind of, if you have a personal space at the place that you work and you keep personal things there, you might slowly start to take them home, you know, not everything all at once, so it doesn't, you know.


Lesley Logan 24:43  

Yeah.


Clare Solly 24:44  

Flags to anybody.


Lesley Logan 24:45  

I haven't had an office job, so thanks, Claire.


Clare Solly 24:47  

I'm absolutely not saying do not take anything against company policy, don't do that. And in fact, make sure that anything you might have... because I mean, I work from home like two days a week now in my current job, but you might start bringing back things that might be company property, and just start leaving them at your desk instead. So just start the severing a little bit early if you know it's going to happen.


Lesley Logan 25:15  

I think so. I think so. Okay, so we talked about if it's on your own terms, we talked about like planning, and we talked about leaving. I guess we didn't really say, like, how do you say I'm quitting? What do you say?


Clare Solly 25:28  

It's different every time.


Lesley Logan 25:31  

Do you give a story ahead, or do you just start with I'm quitting?


Clare Solly 25:34  

Honestly, I think the best is short and sweet. Like, they don't... you don't owe them anything, they don't really owe you anything. I mean, yes, you've invested your time and your intellectual powers to them for however long, but you don't owe them anything. And I really think, too, like telling them where you're going, unless they're asking you, that's your business, you don't have to tell them. Even if they ask you directly, straight out, where you're going, you kind of don't have to tell them.


Lesley Logan 26:02  

Depending on who it is, I might not. I might say, like, I'm just, I will say, like, when I was leaving the fitness jobs, the management job, I said, "You know what, after we get married, the management responsibilities are not going to be something I'm capable of doing in the best way." And I used my marriage, but it was just like telling them I'm going to go teach somewhere could have meant that they would have fired me from all of my teaching gigs.


Clare Solly 26:30  

Yeah.


Lesley Logan 26:30  

You know, so, and by the way, I was legally allowed. I lived in the state of California, there's no non-competes, like I could do whatever I wanted, but you just... I didn't trust the person I worked with to not be vindictive, so I just was like, I'm just going to use my marriage.


Clare Solly 26:42  

You have to do what's best for you. But honestly, the best policy is just saying, you know, walk in, "I'm so sorry, I found XYZ. I found another job, I'm getting married, I'm moving," whatever it is. Keep it short. "I would like to put in my two weeks for you, if you'll accept that." You can say something bullshitty like, "I've enjoyed working here," or something that is sort of true, "I've learned a lot working here." You don't have to tell them why you're leaving, like, "Hey, you're a bullshit boss." Like, you don't have to tell people that. No, if you want to burn the bridge, you take those matches, baby, and you burn, but it's best to get in, get out, I think.


Clare Solly 27:20  

I think so, and also, as much as you want to tell if somebody is worth... like, "Oh my god, this person's the most abusive person," unless they want the criticism, they're not going to listen to you. Yeah, you know, so I just think that some lessons they have to learn on their own. But I also just think that I was raised by people and grandparents who worked for their companies forever, all the decades, retired, started the job and retired with the job. And so I was raised with these people like, you do the best, you do better than they're asking, right? And the reality is that in today's world, that is actually very different. They just stop paying you for what they were paying you, and you're just doing more, and not all bosses are aware that you're actually giving above and beyond. You have a family member who just retired, and they had to hire three people to replace him, but were they paying him three people's jobs worth? No, they were just working him to the ground. And so I think we do need to say... like, I'm not saying that all companies are evil, but a company will replace you. The thing that I learned early on when I ran that jewelry store is everybody's replaceable, even your best salesperson. And that's terrible, and that's awful, and I will remember all the personalities, but the truth is that a lot of us are being replaced by AI.


Clare Solly 28:42  

Or not even that we're being replaced by, people you and I are of the age where companies are reskilling and they're replacing people with newer skills, whether fresh out of college or fresh out of a program, right, rather than somebody who's been there with a longer tenure. 


Lesley Logan 29:00  

Yeah.


Clare Solly 29:00  

And it's not necessarily the age thing; it's like what you know and what you're able to do. 


Lesley Logan 29:04  

Well, and also, even for those who are going to start your own thing, when you become a business owner, you start to realize, like, "What can I pay for this role?" So you might... we have lost some people on the team. We're actually, I'm really proud of us, we're really good at weeding people out in the interview process. We keep our team members for a long time, but we've been around for a long time. Like, this business I've been running, I've been running it by myself starting in 2016 full-time, right? Yeah. And then my first hires were in 2016. Brad came on full-time, and we started hiring more. We had about six people in 2020, now we're more like over 20, but we lost three people due to life situations at the same time. One went on maternity leave forever, one was moving and needed to be paid more for the same job. And it's like, but the role is this pay, like, that's the budget, and that's the role.


Clare Solly 29:54  

You can tell them that too. You can say, "Hey, I got this job in another company and it pays more." Yeah, I'm welcome, you know.


Lesley Logan 30:00  

And we will take all of them back in a heartbeat, but also as a business owner, sometimes I can love someone so much, and I have to let them grow somewhere else because where my budget is for that role that they're doing isn't what they are wanting or feel they deserve, right? And that's not personal, and that's the hard thing.


Clare Solly 30:22  

Yeah, yeah. And also, like, if you're leaving a job because you got more money, you don't have to open that door for them. You just say, "I'm getting more money." Again, just the facts, minimal details, and just the facts.


Lesley Logan 30:37  

I'm having a life change, those are changes in my life, whatever, my life needs, whatever, you don't owe them more information than they actually need. You just, you really, really don't.


Clare Solly 30:47  

It's literally like, "Hey Lesley, I loved working on the Be It Pod. I'm so sorry, I've got a job that is willing to pay me more to do podcasts, and I'm excited about it." 


Lesley Logan 30:57  

Yeah. And it would suck so much. And, you know, we can talk another time of how our team always prepares for anybody to be sick for any amount of time because we have to keep going. Like, you know, and I want to honor people's mental health days and things like that, so we have like a lot of redundancy so we can make sure that we can be there for people, but also so people can go and someone can take their place. And it would suck, and I think of them so fondly, and all that stuff.


Lesley Logan 31:21  

Okay, what if your exit is not your own, like you're fired or the company closed? Like, what happens if the exit happened to you? 


Clare Solly 31:30  

Oh, definitely, definitely. 


Lesley Logan 31:31  

Everything happens for you, but let's be real, like, it happened to you. 


Clare Solly 31:35  

Definitely throw as many things as you can, break as many things on your way out, you know, stab tires. No, don't do any of that. Be as graceful as possible, right? I think one of the best, it hurts, right? It is an ego thing, and it is an ego stab in your heart, and you just have to go. just keep a brave face while you're in front of colleagues, etc., and be as polite as possible because it is a small world. I do not care who you are. I do not care what job you're in. Somebody knows somebody who knows somebody's sister, who knows who's married to somebody who knows you in the next company you go to. It is a small world.


Lesley Logan 32:18  

Yes.


Clare Solly 32:18  

Or it'll get back to you in some weird way, 20 years in the future. We are in a social media-heavy world where everybody knows everything. And I'm not saying you have to be happy about it. I am just saying don't go crazy, just try to hold everything in. And you might,in the back of your mind now, because I generally kind of knew when either I was unhappy or my company was unhappy with me, and I knew, because I've been fired, I'm going to say I've been fired four times. You know, once was like a redundancy, once was because the manager hated me, and I can't remember the other two times, but I've been fired a decent amount, and it hurts every time. And no matter how prepared for it you are, you're never prepared for it. So just kind of pick up on the clues in the background, and just don't sit there every day going, "Oh, I'm going to get fired," but maybe start, you know, hit the rewind button, listen to the beginning of this podcast, this episode, and kind of prepare, and then be as graceful as possible. Get your things together as quickly as possible. Don't talk to anyone that still works for the company. 


Lesley Logan 33:28  

Yeah I agree. 


Clare Solly 33:29  

Even if you have a BFF that works for the company, like, especially don't put anything in writing, don't blast anybody, because a lot of times if you are being let go, they're giving you some sort of package, hopefully.


Lesley Logan 33:42  

Yeah, I would hope so. And I think, even if they don't, even if they're terrible, even for the worst, I just want to reiterate, like, you might end up somewhere, even two jobs from now, where there's someone else who worked there. It just happens, and you don't want your worst day to be the thing that people remember about you when they see you next time, or when someone does ask. Like, sometimes people do call your references in your past jobs, sometimes they call your past jobs, and you don't want the tone of voice to change. So I think... but that's why you go to these new rage stations, and then you break things.


Clare Solly 34:27  

Definitely go to a rage station.


Lesley Logan 34:28  

So, okay, so don't burn the bridges, that's good. Go to a rage place, yay! But, like.


Clare Solly 34:34  

Have a safe friend to talk to, like, that doesn't work at your company.


Lesley Logan 34:39  

This is good advice for everything. Have someone to talk to about everybody who doesn't know the people involved.


Clare Solly 34:45  

You know, and maybe that's somebody you pay, maybe that's a therapist, maybe that's a safe space. I would sort of stay away from telling your mom or your dad, or close family, because family always has opinions on these kind of things.


Lesley Logan 34:58  

Until you're ready. I do think that there are certain things... you kind of have to get your wits about you before you tell the people. It depends on how your relationship is with them, but if they're opinionated, and you often feel like you're constantly letting them know, "I'm not a child anymore." You know, it's the same as a breakup. I don't tell people until I'm like, you have to heal from things before you talk about it sometimes.


Clare Solly 35:18  

So you're human, and we all try things, and we fail things, and failures are hard, and you don't need somebody poking at your failures or asking you. Like, my least favorite thing is when a relationship ends, people are like, "And when are you going to date?"


Lesley Logan 35:35  

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's like, "I just got fired. Okay, so is your resume together?" But I will say a tip: maybe have a little thing in your calendar, like every six months, that you just update your resume. 


Clare Solly 35:47  

Yeah. I get mine updated, so (inaudible).


Lesley Logan 35:50  

Yeah, so it's ready to go, because you just never know these days. You never, you never know, like, people think that the companies will be around forever, and they're not. So I think that that's a really, I think also I just want to highlight what you're saying, it's like, I think you need to grieve a little bit.


Clare Solly 36:02  

Yeah.


Lesley Logan 36:03  

Because maybe you had ideas about what that job could be or what it was going to let you do. I do think a little grieving process is important.


Clare Solly 36:11  

Well, and no matter if you are let go, if you are given severance, or if you are choosing to leave a job, I highly recommend making sure you give yourself space. Make sure you take a week off between jobs, take a couple of weeks, make sure you can, or try your best to afford that. But before you start running again in any capacity, you have to decompress. We take vacations for ourselves from the jobs that we're currently in; we need to do that as well when we are doing anything involved with work.


Lesley Logan 36:48  

I love this idea, so it's like, call the unemployment office first thing, yeah, call your therapist, and then take a beat, just a beat.


Clare Solly 36:57  

Take a beat,


Lesley Logan 36:58  

Yeah, maybe, so hopefully, usually they fire you on a Friday, so hopefully you can take the weekend, like use some credit card points, get a hotel.


Clare Solly 37:05  

Yeah.


Lesley Logan 37:06  

You know.


Clare Solly 37:06  

I mean, I've rage-updated my resume before, and it never works that well, and I have to redo it all.


Lesley Logan 37:11  

Okay, so don't, so you're saying go grieve first, then resume later.


Clare Solly 37:15  

Yeah, yeah. I mean, still check in with the unemployment office, and still check in with like your therapist, and I would check in with your bank account and make sure that you're good there.


Lesley Logan 37:24  

Yeah, yeah, I agree. I think that, you know... but I do think you're allowed to be upset, you're allowed to be sad, you're allowed to be frustrated, you're allowed to be like, "The reason this happened is because of them."


Clare Solly 37:35  

Yeah.


Lesley Logan 37:35  

But also, depending on where you live in the states—I don't know how it works in the rest of the world—but I'm of the management style that you kind of are quitting on me before I fire you. I'm giving you talks, and those talks... at least in California, I had to give you written notices, and these are the dates you've improved these things by, so if you're around number two or three, they're probably not happy with you. So you can plan for that, but if you can't, it is out of your control, and it happens sooner than you thought. I do think grief and taking a pause is really nice.


Clare Solly 38:12  

Yeah, and I think, too, to some extent, when you were saying that, it just kind of came to my head, like, maybe just when you're in a thoughtful moment, and you can handle that thought, just write yourself just like a little exit plan in your notes app in your phone or something like that. So that... we have an emergency strategy if your house is on fire, right? You know where the exits are. Maybe you just give yourself that when you're in a good space. You know, what are my steps that I need to take? Who are my emergency contacts? Where am I in the level-set of money and my trajectory, and all that?


Lesley Logan 38:49  

I also think, even if it was your dream job, I would sit down and journal. I would write down all the things that you hated about it, and all the things you loved about it, right? This is something we do all the time. Like, when people are like, "I need to get a scheduling tool," I'm like, "Write down all the things you want it to do, like, what are your dream things?" Same as if you're going to date someone where they have to have these qualities. I would say take a moment to think about what is the stuff that you loved about that job, and then what are the things that you fucking hated, even as a dream job. There are always things that are irritating, like working for anybody is irritating, so it has irritating moments. So I would write that down, because that way, when you are updating your resume, you're updating it with the ideas of the qualities you want to enhance and highlight, and you're looking for the jobs that have the keywords that are in the love section, and you are a little bit more aware of the things where you're like, "I don't do well in these spaces." Yeah, if you're not a team player, then a job that is like, "You're going to be working on this team, and it's integral that you work with the team," you can go, "Oh, I need a more solo job." It's okay.


Clare Solly 39:47  

Yeah. And then also, instead of trying to... because the instinct is to pick at yourself and go, "What did I do wrong? What was wrong with me?" Right? We do that in any kind of relationship, whether it is a work relationship or a personal relationship. We focus it back on ourselves, and sometimes it's not you. I mean, sometimes it is, but sometimes it's just not what you're capable of, or not the skills that you have, or not the education you have. So when you start taking yourself apart, turn it back positively. And maybe instead of sitting there... we all get to mourn, right? We all get to mourn, we all get to hurt. But instead of sitting there and picking apart yourself and panicking about not having a job, go on YouTube and look up some skill videos. Yeah, go to university websites and take a look at courses.


Lesley Logan 40:46  

Universities give courses for free.


Clare Solly 40:47  

Yeah, and if you find yourself sort of like rage-scrolling through LinkedIn or something like that, looking at your colleagues or looking at people that have similar jobs to you, look at their resumes and go, "What are the skills they have? What can I add to my resume that makes me more excitable as a hire? What am I missing?" and just kind of re-level set yourself.


Lesley Logan 41:07  

Yeah.


Clare Solly 41:08  

Instead of going internal, look to the external and see how you can grow, and be it till you see it.


Lesley Logan 41:15  

I love that. Oh my god, we could talk forever on this topic because I feel like there's just so much to say, but I do feel like that's some great, helpful stuff because being it till you see it often isn't staying where you are, it's acting like the person you want to be when you're there, and that can mean building an exit strategy, or it could mean letting go of the place that you're at. So I love this, Clare. We're going to take a brief break, and then we're going to find out where people can find you, follow you, connect with you, and get your Be It Action Items. 


Lesley Logan 41:44  

Okay, Clare, where do you hang out these days?


Clare Solly 41:48  

I am still on the Instagram as a bookstagrammer. You can find me at @YouWontBeSolly on the Instagram and the TikTok, although I'm slow to post these days. You can find me and my books at www.claresolly.com Clare with no I, and there will be more news in a couple of years once I get that PhD rolling and going.


Lesley Logan 42:08  

I know. I'll have to have you back on for that. "How did you 'be it till you see it' to call yourself a doctor?"


Clare Solly 42:13  

I know, I'm so excited I'm here. Schedule me now for that. Set your alarms. And I would say for this topic, my Be It Action Items.


Lesley Logan 42:21  

Bold, executable, intrinsic or targeted steps people can take to be it until they see it. I mean, I know you know the thing, but I gotta say it, you know, for the new listeners.


Clare Solly 42:29  

I love it. New listeners.


Lesley Logan 42:30  

New listeners, this is the section where they tell us your action items.


Clare Solly 42:35  

I mean, I think take a look at yourself, where you are, look at where you can improve, and create an exit strategy if you are ready to leave, just so you have it. In a sane moment, you're ready to go when you have that crazy moment later.


Lesley Logan 42:53  

Yeah, yeah, I think it's important. Why not, while you don't need to do it, think about what to do, because it is really hard to do it when you, unless you're like me, and you're clear-headed when the shoe drops.


Clare Solly 43:09  

Yeah.


Lesley Logan 43:10  

And some people are, but I think a lot of people need a little more time to wrap their heads around it, and that's okay.


Clare Solly 43:15  

We think about retirement, we think about when our job is ending towards the end of our life, we think about again when you're in a fire situation, when you're in an earthquake situation, like, we practice those things. And even though it feels a little bit like dun dun dun to think about the ending of your job, if you prepare for it now, you'll be ready for it when it happens. If it happens, maybe it won't, maybe you'll be forever in your job and happy.


Lesley Logan 43:41  

Yeah, well, I hope so. Okay, thanks so much, Clare, for being you and bringing up this topic. I think this is so fun. You guys, make sure you tell us which parts of this you loved, and I know it's more conversational if you're used to listening to this, but I think that that's also even more fun. So I'm kind of into that as well. And share this with a friend who needs to hear it, share with a friend who's like constantly complaining about their job—like, you don't have to be their coach for them. Guess what, you could just go, "Wow, you should listen to the Be It Till You See It podcast, yeah, with Lesley and Clare on this topic." And until next time, Be It Till You See It. 


Lesley Logan 44:11  

That's all I got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It Podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate the show and leave a review and follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to your podcast. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over at the Be It Pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us and others Be It Till You See It. Have an awesome day. Be It Till You See It is a production of The Bloom Podcast Network. If you want to leave us a message or a question that we might read on another episode, you can text us at +1-310-905-5534 or send a DM on Instagram @BeItPod.


Brad Crowell 44:53  

It's written, filmed, and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan, and me, Brad Crowell.


Lesley Logan 44:58  

It is transcribed, produced and edited by the epic team at Disenyo.co.


Brad Crowell 45:03  

Our theme music is by Ali at Apex Production Music and our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi.


Lesley Logan 45:10  

Special thanks to Melissa Solomon for creating our visuals.


Brad Crowell 45:13  

Also to Angelina Herico for adding all of our content to our website. And finally to Meridith Root for keeping us all on point and on time.



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