484. The Importance of Collaboration Over Compromise in a Relationships

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Lesley Logan sits down with marriage and family therapist Kristal DeSantis, author of Strong: A Relationship Field Guide for the Modern Man, to discuss healthy masculinity, relationship communication, and how to create strong, lasting partnerships. Whether you're single, in a relationship, or married, this episode offers actionable insights into understanding and improving connections with the men in your life.


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In this episode you will learn about:

  • Why men and women often struggle to communicate effectively in relationships.
  • The impact of societal messaging on men's mental health and self-worth.
  • The difference between needing vs. wanting a partner and why it matters.
  • How women can invite—not force—men into self-growth and therapy.
  • The 4 communication styles and how they impact relationships.
  • The 3 P’s of traditional masculinity (Protector, Provider, Procreator) and how they shape men’s identity.
  • The power of collaboration vs. compromise in a partnership.
  • Practical steps to create emotional safety and trust in a relationship.


Episode References/Links:


Guest Bio:

Kristal DeSantis is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist based in Austin, Texas, specializing in men's mental health, trauma work, and sex therapy. She is the author of STRONG: A Relationship Field Guide for the Modern Man, which offers practical guidance on building healthy relationships. Kristal’s expertise lies in helping both men and women navigate the complexities of modern relationships, with a focus on intentional partnerships, emotional resilience, and balancing traditional masculinity with emotional sensitivity.

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Episode Transcript:

Kristal DeSantis 0:00  

It's not I'm half a person out here searching for my other half, and then, oh, you complete me. We're soul mates. No, be a whole person, do your work, and then find the person that also is a whole person that does his work, so that together you can have a whole, healthy relationship.


Lesley Logan 0:16  

Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I'm Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I've trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self-doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it's the antidote to fear. Each week, my guest will bring bold, executable, intrinsic and targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It's a practice, not a perfect. Let's get started.


Lesley Logan 0:59  

All right, Be It babe. I can't wait for you to hear today's episode. When I met with today's guest Kristal DeSantis, I was like, okay, this is an interesting topic. And I asked her some questions, and I was like, oh my God, I love you. I really love what you're saying. So she is actually a marriage and family therapist. She is the author of Strong: A Relationship Field Guide for the Modern Man. And I was like, well, most of my listeners are women, so what about this is something you can take away. And ladies, here's the deal, we talk about this in the episode. We have been given so much messaging on how we can be strong, independent, amazing, do things, and unfortunately, our male counterparts did not receive that same messaging growing up, and so there's some miscommunication going on. And I really love her approach. We do not have to play small. We do not have to make ourselves smaller. We don't have to change or compromise. It's actually a really great invitation for us to have better relationships with our partners. And so I really think this is an excellent episode. I think you're gonna really love it. I hope you do. And this is for you, whether you're single or married or have a great marriage, but have sons or daughters like I really found this to be very fascinating. And her book is Strong: A Relationship Field Guide for the Modern Man. Here is Kristal DeSantis. 


Lesley Logan 2:17  

All right, Be It babe. I am really, really excited for today's conversation. When I met our guest today, I was like, this is a topic we haven't touched on and, I think, impacts us all in so many ways. Kristal DeSantis is our guest today. Crystal, can you tell everyone who you are and what you rock at?


Kristal DeSantis 2:35  

Sure. I am a marriage and family therapist and author. I specialize in men's mental health and trauma and sex therapy, and I wrote a book for men. And, yeah, I'm really passionate about relationships, healthy relationships. 


Lesley Logan 2:51  

I can tell you're passionate about it. And I actually, I think people are like, what? Lesley, but I'm a woman, and listens to this podcast, and I was like, yeah, but something that you touch on as a marriage counselor is really helping us understand what is going on with the men in our lives. And I think that that can be heated topic depending on like, where we are in this planet and what your life experience is. But as much as we want them to understand us, I think especially as the understanding of mental health with them is happening, and more and more people are diving into that, and also the topic of masculinity, we've had people come on and talk about what healthy masculinity looks like, I think us being able to understand a different perspective can be really helpful. Am I on the right track with what you want to do?


Kristal DeSantis 3:31  

Totally, totally. And I really specialize in healthy masculinity in the context of a healthy relationship, right? So I always want to say, like, you know, I'm not here to tell men how to be men. I am here to talk about what that looks like in a healthy partnership, how to be a strong, powerful, empowered adult in a healthy relationship. 


Lesley Logan 3:52  

How did you get into this? Is this something that you thought you were going to school for? Is this something that you just kept finding couples and you started to go, wow, I'm the only one talking about this. What was the journey? 


Kristal DeSantis 4:03  

Yeah, so it actually is really interesting is I had no interest in dating or relationships when I was growing up, like my parents, they had a very traditional marriage, and my mom was a stay-at-home mom, and my dad was the breadwinner, and it was just this very traditional setup. I have a lot of siblings, so you know, my mom was very much a stay-at-home wife and mother, and I, you know, was like, I don't think that's for me. I wanted to grow up and be a woman about the world, a career woman, boss babe and jetting off here and there. And I was like, who has time for a man and all of that, right? And so I was just focused on being a strong woman, just myself. So I went to college. I went to an all women's college. I was surrounded by these, like, fabulous, strong women. And so I was like, boys, come on. Like, the last thing on my list, I have no time for them. And then, as I started to, you know, go out in the world, my younger sister ended up getting married, and she married this really lovely man, and it started to make me realize, like, oh. Huh? Well, I haven't even thought about this. And also, you know, in my culture, my mom is Asian, and so in Asian culture, like the oldest daughter gets married before the next one, and then there's, like, a, you know, a rule to follow here. So I think that's also where I was like, well, shoot, I guess I should probably start to think about this. So I just kind of did what, you know, most women would do, I just went and put myself on a dating app, and it was a horrific and terrible experience, like it was, you know. 


Lesley Logan 5:29  

Sounds about right. 


Kristal DeSantis 5:30  

Yeah, exactly. It was like, wow, this is awful. I don't want to do this at all, but then I ended up in a relationship that it was just, it highlighted so much, how I did not have any relational skills, and it started to make me think that, you know, in the back of my mind somewhere, I guess I thought maybe just buying into the narrative, a little bit like you're a woman, you know, at some point when you decide you want to get married, it'll happen. And again, it wasn't that I was looking for marriage, even dating. I didn't know how to do this. I didn't know what I was looking for. I had a relationship. We couldn't communicate. And so I was like, oh, maybe I actually need to work on this a little bit. And then I met my husband on a dating app, and then it was like, okay, here's somebody that you're actually really interested in having a relationship with, and you know, you want to get your act together, girl. So I took my butt to therapy, I worked and I found a marriage and family therapist, and that's when I realized, like, oh, there's this whole field of learning about marriage and family therapy and relationship skills, and these are things you can learn. So yeah, so I went to therapy myself, and then I started going to school, and then eventually, 10 years later, here I am.


Lesley Logan 6:40  

Oh my God. (inaudible) What a journey. Okay, so here's what comes to my mind, though. When we think about working on ourselves, we work on ourselves, and we hope that our partner, our future partners, are working on themselves. But then there's also the marriage, right? And the relationship skills that you brought up. And I think it's really easy as women for us to think we have to do all the work to work on the relationship, but actually, it takes two people to work on a relationship.


Kristal DeSantis 7:05  

Absolutely, yeah, and that's part of what I realized when I met my husband is he had already been divorced, and so he did a lot of therapy at the end of his relationship. And so that's what really showed up for me, is that here is this man who was ahead of me in the relational skill game, and I was the one who had to catch up. And so that also really kind of showed me that, oh, wow, you know, what is it like for men to go to therapy? And it made me curious about his experiences, and that's really where then, when I started to go to school to be a therapist, I realized a lot of people talk about women's therapy needs and what women need. And like you said, the women doing all the work of the relationship. And I was like, well, what about the men out there that want to do the work? Who's speaking to them?


Lesley Logan 7:50  

Yeah, I mean, and is anyone speaking to them? Because, you know, I have a lot of single friends, and it is tough out there. Obviously I'm only hearing one side of the story, but what I'm hearing I'm like, oh yeah, you should run from that. But also, if there are people out there with good intentions, there does need to be a, not a give and, I don't like the idea of a give and take or a compromise, because I think that it's really easy for one side to compromise more or to give more, but there does need to be an understanding of, how do we actually move forward together as a we without losing the me that is part of it. 


Kristal DeSantis 8:26  

Exactly. And that's why I always want to talk about collaboration, right? It's like when you hear about two artists coming together to collaborate on a project or on a song, it's always about they're creating something better because they're working together. It's not, okay, this is going to be worse material that we're hearing from both of them, right? It's not compromise, it's collaboration. So I always like to think about that (inaudible).


Lesley Logan 8:48  

Kristal, that's brilliant.


Kristal DeSantis 8:51  

Like, a strong woman needs a strong man, right? And a strong, healthy man needs a strong partner by his side so they can have strong relationship. I put it in the book. It's multiplication. It's not addition. It's not I'm half a person out here searching for my other half, and then, oh, you complete me. We're soul mates. It's like, no, be a whole person, do your work, and then find the person that also is a whole person that does his work so that together you can have a whole, healthy relationship. 


Lesley Logan 9:17  

Oh, I love it. I love it so much. Because I really hated Jerry Maguire. I hated the whole sentence, everything about that. I was raised by parents who are like, you're not looking for your other half. You need to have a whole life. And they add to your life. They don't take away from your life. They're just really, really big on that, which I'm really grateful for, because I think I could have ended up in a really lousy relationship and divorced at a young age. Had I thought I needed to be completed in my life. But I love the idea of multiplication. I love the idea, the visual of like, we should be making better art together. Yeah, that's super cool. Okay, you wrote an amazing book. What made you want to write this book? Who is this book for? Can you tell us a little bit about it?


Kristal DeSantis 9:55  

Absolutely. And so I wrote the book for men, because what I otniced is, again, there's this gap in the field when it comes to self-help, messaging and therapy, messaging and self-improvement and trauma healing and all of that. It really does tend to skew really heavily towards women (inaudible). 


Lesley Logan 10:12  

We have the most work to do. That's what it feels like. We have the most work to do, and they have nothing to do, which is not true. 


Kristal DeSantis 10:20  

But also I saw like a huge resource imbalance, because even what you just said about the message that you got as a young girl is a message that young girls have been getting since feminism is, hey, you can do anything, you can be anything, you can have a whole life. Don't fall for a guy that just wants to make you a part of his. Right?


Lesley Logan 10:40  

You're right. And they didn't get. 


Kristal DeSantis 10:42  

They did not, men are not getting that message. They're still getting the message that look for someone who needs you, because that's your job. 


Lesley Logan 10:50  

Kristal, this is what's going on in the world. This is the problem. Yes, they're all wanting someone who needs them, and these women don't, and they're like, hey, (inaudible) I don't need you. Isn't that cool? And they're like, but I'm supposed to be needed. That's the love language. Okay, I'm getting it now. 


Kristal DeSantis 11:05  

Yeah. I mean, that was really, like, the first quote that I put in my book is one that I found because I was on Twitter and I was seeing this pattern in couples where I'm like, you know, the women are working really hard and the guys just are not getting it. But I'm not getting this sense from these men that they don't want to get it. They want to get it really bad. But there's something that's like, hugely missed in translation here. And this quote that I found on Twitter, it was, everybody's out here empowering women, but who's preparing men for these empowered women? And that's really what it is, is that the guys are hearing, we don't need you anymore. And they're like, well, then what are we? Chopped liver? And then they're getting all angry and spun up.


Lesley Logan 11:47  

Well, and that's, so that's the thing. As I have tried to listen to some decent male masculinity experts, and I will say decent, because they're not the ones that are like, telling terrible things about women. But even then, I left confused, going, I don't understand how we're not on the same page. And you just nailed it. The women are empowered and are excited to meet someone who wants them to be empowered, but also wants someone who is at the level of them, like they're looking for that. And unfortunately, the people who are there to be there for these men who are looking for research and looking for help, are actually making it worse. I feel like they're making the division worse. They're making it seem like masculinity is this, like, tough, hard thing, and it's really, it's really sad, and I see that because I have a brother, I have friends with younger brothers, and I'm listening to them talk about women, and I'm like,who raised you? You weren't even raised in that house. So you wrote this book for men, is this something that women can read or gift to a male in their life? Is this something that they give to a son or a brother or husband?


Kristal DeSantis 12:47  

Yeah, I would hope so. And I've heard, you know, from my clients, that reading it together as a couple has been really enlightening, because part of what I talk about in here, which, again, what I was seeing, is the disconnect, is women are saying, like, how do you guys don't get it, because women don't realize that the messages that we've been getting the men haven't been getting. Right? And so for us, it's just common sense. Of course, everybody should be independent and self-sufficient and all of that, and look for somebody to improve your life. So how come you guys are so behind? And so I think hopefully if women read this book, they can also start to understand some of the messages that men get about what it means to be a man because in the prologue, I talk about how, for so many generations of men, their worth was tied to what I talk about as the three P's, you're a protector, you're a provider, and you're a procreator. If you can't do one of these things. You're useless as a man. You can't protect, you can't provide, you can't give your wife babies if she wants them, you suck.


Lesley Logan 13:48  

This is really, really fascinating, because it's true. I think the single women who are listening and in my friendships are like, why wouldn't they want someone like me who is independent, who wants to be a partner, and not as someone who needs them or as a drain on them. And yeah, it's because of the messaging, and they're still getting that. And so for my married women listening, I think that there can be friction or miscommunication. What is your advice for them to or for us? I should just, I should include myself there, to understand our husbands. I will say, I'm like, you, my husband was divorced when I met him, and I was like, oh, I love the work you've done on yourself, and I love what you know that you don't like. And I also love that she was a little crazier than me, so I got a long runway. But like, what can we, and I say this, I really want to say this intentionally, I'm not saying that we back off from our independence or we, but I want to say, like, what can we be doing to understand, again, this is gonna sound terrible, how to make them feel that they're worthy in their relationship, too? I guess this is without making ourselves smaller. 


Kristal DeSantis 14:50  

Yeah, well, and I think this is an important piece of the puzzle as well, is that a lot of women also grew up with internalized messaging about what men should be and what men should provide. The kind of internalized expectations that, you know, sometimes we don't even realize we have because we don't want to have them. For example, we don't need a man who's a provider, like, I have my own job, I have my own money. But then, if he doesn't have a job, do we look at him as less of a man, right? Or if he chooses a job with less income, do we also then get a little bit frustrated that he's not, quote-unquote, on our level? And so, this is part of what I talk about in my book of like, how can we start to encourage that men can still be protectors, they can still be providers, they can still be procreators, but let's make it more adaptive to what the modern relationship actually wants, right? So maybe a man is not the primary financial provider anymore, and maybe women need to start looking at okay, so then what else does he provide? Maybe he provides a sense of emotional safety. Maybe he provides a place where I can be vulnerable. Maybe he provides emotional support and a vision for our family that helps me just feel alive and supported and all of that. And the same thing with protection. Well, do I really need a guy who's gonna be the biggest six foot football player type otherwise I see him as less of a man, which, again, that's also something that women kind of also kind of objectify men in that way, right? 


Lesley Logan 16:15  

Yeah. Oh, every woman wants a six foot tall man who's super vulnerable but ambitious. They want all those things.


Kristal DeSantis 16:22  

Yeah. And so this is also where I can hear from the men, they're getting so frustrated. They're like, you want us, you're saying that looks don't matter, and you want us to be people. And then you have these TikToks that are like, I want a six, five guy in finance. Which one is it? So I think that's also where the women, us, women can do our own work of is it really true that we would value personality, that we do value a man who is able to protect us emotionally, even though he's not the biggest, strongest guy that could fight every guy on the block? And so those kinds of things are really important for us to also come to a reckoning with. Same thing with the procreator. Can we be with somebody who wants to prioritize being a parent? I've seen sometimes with this in relationships, where, you know, women are frustrated that their husband is not being an equal parent. But then when I actually look at, well, where is there room for him to be a parent? Because if it's your vision of what you want your parenting style to look like, and there's no room for him, well he's kind of stuck in a rock and a hard place here.


Lesley Logan 17:19  

Yeah, you're (inaudible) like, I'm not perfect everyone, which you should know that already. And I can even say in my own marriage, when Brad came on to the team, my business, I had to really learn how to say we instead of I, because I'm so used to being my business. I'm doing X, I'm doing Y, and I still fuck it up. Like, I still say I don't want to spend on that, and it's hold on, if I want him to be the CEO of the company, and I believe he is the better CEO versus me because I'm the visionary and I do all these things, then there has to be a we and I also have to let him be him. And so it's not about making myself small. It's about going, okay, going back to what you say, where is there room, and what are the strengths that he brings to that, that I can go, okay, that's actually more beautiful than what I could have done by myself and then communicating that. And I think that's the hard part.


Kristal DeSantis 18:09  

Yeah, and this is again, where maybe we focus on women don't need men, but we need to start thinking about where do we want them? If you don't need someone, that's fine, but he's got to feel wanted, at least. I want your input. I value your vision. I value what you bring to the table. That's always something I want to encourage is like, you know, we don't have to be co-dependent on each other, but you do have to have some sense that you're desired here. You know?


Lesley Logan 18:33  

Yeah, I think that's a really important distinction, because when Brad and I first started dating, he was like, I don't want to do everything together all the time. And I was like, yeah, so that would be a no for me, too. I need my private time because what he has seen, and I don't think my in-laws listen, but as they hang, they're always together. They're, they do everything together. They are on sports teams together. They're on all these things that I am like, oh, I'm gonna get people are surprised that I get an Uber and leave a party all the time, and that's like, no, I'm done now. So we had to do a lot of what does that look like? What does a relationship together look like? What we're still, what are we sharing with each other, and what aren't we sharing with each other? And I think communication up front is really can be difficult, because some people are afraid they'll say the wrong thing, or they'll offend the person, or the person will feel not needed, and it's like we have to also probably be able to let people explain things and then maybe follow up with questions. If we are, like, hold on, where am I in that that sentence, it feels like you said, this is that what you said. And I think we're not taught those communication skills 


Kristal DeSantis 19:35  

Absolutely. I mean, that is such a huge thing that has shown up. I realized for myself as like, oh, I don't know how to do this. I think there's some magical thinking going on when it comes to relationships that, like, when you find the right person, it'll just happen. Love conquers all. You'll get this, like, magical like, no, you don't. You don't get the the download of relationship skills the minute you fall in love. And so, like you said, just like recognizing, where could I be more curious? This, where could I be less sure that okay, they're doing it because they're a jerk, and instead start to maybe look at if we're working together here, how do I ask about this differently? How do I invite them into this conversation? Rather than start with an accusation. 


Lesley Logan 20:15  

Let's talk about the invitation, because I'm also thinking about the women like I'm doing this work, ladies, I am trying this, and my partner isn't participating in this conversation. It feels like I'm doing the work on the relationship, and they're not. How should they be setting the conversation up or what should they be doing? Should they be inviting you into it? What does that look like, if the woman listening is wanting to flesh all this out so that everyone's on the same page about how they're valued and how they want to be valued?


Kristal DeSantis 20:38  

Yeah. And that's where I would say, you know, part of the reason I wrote this book for men as a woman is also giving them insight into what, typically women are looking for when it comes to a strong man, right? And so again, just redefining what strong means. A lot of men think that it still means, like, strong, physically, strong financially. And really, what I'm saying is, no, I break it down into the first S of strong it stands for safety. Women look to feel safe in a relationship. That's kind of that in sometimes where women are like, I would love to feel safer and more secure in this relationship. Here's how I found this book that really resonated with me about ways that I could feel safer and more secure, because that would help me trust and respect you more, right? Or that could help us with our intimacy, that would help us feel more connected, help me feel more connected to you. You know, that's what I want, and so inviting it not as a here's a book on how you're screwing up and all men suck. And I was like, that's probably not going to go over very well, but really an invitation to I want our marriage to be the best. I don't want to just phone it in. I don't want to have, you know, what, maybe my parents or my neighbors, or, you know, these people that are just like, I think, the old trope of the boomer, miserable ball and chain thing, like, I want us to have a relationship that we can be proud of, that we can really look forward to coming home to. I want to have that. So will you work on that with me? And often for men too, it's like the conversation can be so high stakes for men, because often, again, with the idea that if you're a real man, you're supposed to be good at everything, you're never supposed to need help. You're never supposed to ask questions. This idea that for a man, you're just supposed to know, and so for a lot of men having this conversation, really come from a place of, I think we're great, and I would like us to be even better. Or I've noticed that we started out great, and here's a place where maybe I've noticed we started to fall off, like maybe our intimacy has not been as fulfilling as we'd like, or I don't. I noticed that we don't connect the way we used to. I'd like that kind of strength-based approach. 


Lesley Logan 22:47  

Yeah, yeah, not the we need to talk approach which, oh, no one, no, by the way, you guys. I say this to people who have employees like, never say we need to talk. Tell people what it is so that, like, ease in, because you're gonna put people on defensive as opposed to an invitation to have a conversation. I really like all of that advice. I think that is helpful. You know what? You, and forgive me if you hate this comparison, but when I broke up with my ex, I read Act Like a Lady, Think Like a Man, which you have to take some of the advice, and not all the advice, everybody. And one piece of advice that I took out of the whole book. It was like, he needs to feel needed. We know you can pick up the box. We'd like to pick up the box for you. And I was like, okay, so when my husband, we weren't together yet, we actually had a little bit of a we weren't dating, but we broke up anyways, he broke up with me, just further clarification, but he texted me. He's like, hey, I'm on my way. We had this mutual thing that we both knew we're going to and I was too stubborn to not go. And he's like, hey, I picked up some sparkling water and some hummus and carrots. I know you're gluten-free, is there anything else? And I was like, this is my opportunity to need something. So even if I don't really want him to get me anything, I should try this out. And that was that opened up an invitation for us to actually hang out at this thing and not to have something in between us. And it was, that was a fun piece of advice. But I feel like your book, written for men by a woman and a married woman, is really cool, because it gives them advice from the perspective of the gender of their spouse. And I think that that is, you know, kind of we can, we could all learn from the other person's perspective in a different way. I don't know if you, that's (inaudible), you know, and that and the (inaudible) into you. Like, I read that, and I was like, okay, that was really helpful. Thanks, guys, for the advice on what you want.


Kristal DeSantis 24:38  

Absolutely. And again, like, the distinction between needed and wanted is, I think that's where sometimes people get really hung up. But it's like, you know, I didn't need something for the store, but I know you'd want to feel useful, so I'll throw out a want. Can you just grab a, I don't know, chocolate almonds or something, same thing, like, could I open the jar by myself? Absolutely. If it was me and this jar on an island, I could do it. But do I want to just hand it to my husband to help him feel like, yeah, she might not need me, but she sure wants me, because I feel like I play a role to improving her life. And that's really the thing that I noticed is, of course, there are men that have no interest in contributing to relationships, but they've totally phoned it in, and they don't want to improve. They don't want to do any of that. But again, maybe that's not the best relationship to be in, but there are lot more men that are like, I desperately want to make my wife happy. I just don't know how. And again, I'm not saying like, oh man, they just don't know anything. I'm saying that a lot of times they aren't getting the messages, because society hasn't started to tell them those messages yet. It's kind of been the message of, you should just know. And they're like, I sure don't. You know? 


Lesley Logan 25:48  

Yeah. Because I see some of the that my my clients are like, oh my gosh, Lesley, look what they wrote to me in a DM on this dating app. And I was like, okay, I really appreciate the people know what they want. But maybe not the second line that you say. You know? But also, what messaging are they getting? They're getting, like, women know what they want now, well, this is what I want. So I think it is true. There is a lack of information and support. We have plenty. And I even think about my friend Vincent. He became a first time parent, and he was looking for support for dads and he's like, there is nothing. There's nothing out here for me. There's no, I'm gonna have an infant daughter, and I have no idea what to do. So he had to create the stuff to guide dads. And there are, of course, dads who want to phone it in. There just are people who want to phone life in, I don't get those people either and we can't help people who don't want to help it, but there is a huge fraction of people who are like, hold on, educate me, and there's a lack of education. And so I do love that you provided this with this book, but also I think this is a really amazing opportunity for all of us as women to go, okay, hold on, where have we been so supported? And they haven't. I think it's really important we don't have to be the ones that fix them or educate them, because that's not what they want. That's your job. That is your job. So for the woman whose husband or partner is going through some sort of crisis, maybe they lost their job, or their mental health is having an issue, what is the best thing that they can do to support that person? Because it's not that they have to fix them. 


Kristal DeSantis 27:14  

No. That's the thing, is that I do see that pattern of women then work too hard to try to fix, to try to solve, or they're like, I've called five different doctors and I'm setting up his appointments, and then they're resentful, because then it's like, well, now it's that parent-child dynamic, which is, ick, right, not that sexy at all. And so that's again, is coming at it from a place of concern, like, I've noticed that you've been kind of depressed lately, or your drinking has kind of escalated. I'm concerned. And as your partner, who cares about you, I'm concerned for you. Like, how can we get past this? What do you need to feel supported? And that's really where, again, a lot of men, and I know it sounds maybe a little bit ridiculous, but even the idea that they would call somebody doesn't quite enter their mind until it's been presented. Do you think you might want to talk to somebody? I'm noticing that you're pretty depressed or that your drinking has been escalated, or that you're having a really hard time finding a job. Do you want to do something about that? Would you like my help? Or do you think you got it? And that's really where sometimes the conversations can be just slightly different than if it's fine, you're useless. I got it. Where then a lot of women end up in that over-functional role that then ends up burning them out and then leads to a lot of resentment against the men that they're with. 


Lesley Logan 28:28  

Yeah. That approach leads me to this question, and maybe it's the same answer, but if she's listening, and she's like, oh my gosh, actually, you know what, Kristal, or a marriage therapist like Kristal is the best thing, what is the best approach to making sure it feels like an invitation and not like you have to go to marriage counseling?


Kristal DeSantis 28:46  

Yeah. You know, it is kind of a tricky one, because, for unfortunate reasons, right, going to therapy can sometimes just already be seen as, like, the stigma of like you're being sent to the principal's office. And that's part of why I wrote this book is that men can actually do research on me before even coming to see me, so that they can, you know, be like, all right, I checked her out, I looked at her stuff. I feel like I know what I'm going to get walking in there. Because that's always why, I mean, that's why I said this book is for men. Is because so many men are worried that when they go into therapy, they're going to be one down that, you know, the wife and the therapists are both women. They know all this, like, jargon about therapy and there, I'm just going to be sitting there, like, being told I'm an asshole. I'm like, you know, and I'm going to pay for it. That doesn't sound like a good time. And so really showing them that, like, no, there are therapists and coaches out there that specifically work on helping men feel more empowered in their role, in their relationships, as husbands, as fathers, and the more you can kind of have it be like, no, this is about helping you activate your strengths, right? As opposed to we're going because I'm pissed at you, and this is the last straw, and so that's always where I would always say, you know, go proactively, frame it as a this is an additive for our relationship. It's like, I talk about this, like going to the emotional gym, you know? It's like, how do you invite your partner to go to the gym with you? You do have to talk about it as like, this is for our health, because I want to have a long life with you, you know? And that's exactly the same. I'm asking you to come to therapy with me, because I think that maybe there are some things that we could be healthier on, and I want us to be doing it together. Will you come with me?


Lesley Logan 30:29  

Yeah, that's so good. This is really great. I do love it, of course. Like when you say it, Kristal, it sounds like, oh, duh. That sounds like, that's how I want someone to invite me. But when you're in it, when you're in something with your partner and you're feeling like it's not going the way you want. Sometimes you just get defensive. So you guys, we transcribe every podcast so you can actually just copy from the website, memorize it and say it. You know?


Kristal DeSantis 30:54  

Yeah. Invitations versus accusations. That's (inaudible) all day. Turn it around. 


Lesley Logan 31:02  

I love it. What are you most excited about right now? 


Kristal DeSantis 31:05  

So in the new year, my husband and I are going to be teaming up to run some couples retreats, but we're doing it, again, because one of the things that a whole therapy thing, it feels really heavy, and sometimes it is, and that's really important to go do the hard work, but what I also see is couples don't have a lot of fun together these days, right? It's like the fun happens when you're dating, and then you start getting married, and then suddenly you're talking about bills and kids and logistics and diapers and in-laws, and you lose the fun. And that's often where I see couples just be so drained, is they don't have that bank of, you know, playful, pleasurable experiences that can get them through the hard times. So we're doing little bonding boot camps, where it's just a weekend, and we help couples work through some bonding skills, communication exercises, but in a fun and playful way. So it's not, you know, sitting in a conference room. We're big outdoorsy people, so, (inaudible). 


Lesley Logan 31:58  

That's cool. That's so fun. I love that. I really do. I think it is needed. And, you are correct, especially if you're listening and you work with your husband like I do, you know, one of the things I had to do this year, well, for 2024 I told my assistant, I said you have to go through our calendars, and you have to find a weekend every quarter and block off Friday to Monday. And we're not going to plan anything. It's just blocked off. So we can have a trip, even if we just go two hours away, we've got to do something. Because, you know, you buy the house, you got these things, there's all these deadlines, and Friday can bleed into Saturday, and then you feel like you're together all the time, but you're actually not together as a partnership, yeah. So what a great invitation. And also, when I think about my parents' relationship conferences. It was in a conference room. And, like, we went to a hotel, sat in lectures all the time, and. 


Kristal DeSantis 32:46  

Yeah, yeah. And then also it, what I noticed with my husband and I is we both had very busy jobs, and then we would look forward to the once a year big vacation that we would take. But I was like, I am dying in the meantime. And so, like you said, just these little tiny bursts of gosh, we can look forward to the one weekend, one weekend a month, that is just gonna be us. We maybe not even go far. We go an hour away, but like our little mini staycation vacation, where we get to re, pretend like we're on vacation, even though we're at Buc-ee's or something. 


Lesley Logan 33:17  

Yeah, no, I think it's so creative. And also, if people don't want their parents' marriage, then they don't want their parents' marriage counseling retreat either. 


Kristal DeSantis 33:28  

Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.


Lesley Logan 33:32  

All right, we're (inaudible). Yeah, I agree. I love it so much. Okay, we're gonna take a brief break, and then we're gonna find out how people can work with you, get your book, and more. 


Lesley Logan 33:39  

All right, Kristal, where do you hang out? Where can people do marriage counseling with you via Zoom? Do they have to live where you are? Like, how do people work with you and where to get your book?


Kristal DeSantis 33:46  

If you are in Texas, I can work with you as a therapist. But if you are not in Texas and you just want to work with me, I have some courses, and then I do some coaching through the coursework, through my website, strong.love and then my book is on Amazon and on Audible, Strong: A Relationship Field Guide for the Modern Man. And then, of course, I'm on Instagram @atxtherapist. 


Lesley Logan 34:12  

Atxtherapist. Oh, you're in Austin. 


Kristal DeSantis 34:14  

Uh huh, yeah. 


Lesley Logan 34:15  

We're gonna be in Austin, you guys, it's too late once you hear this, because, but I'm gonna be there on January 4th, I think. Yeah, all right, we'll talk offline about that. Okay, so you actually, I feel like you've given us so much already, but it's a segment people love, because it's where they can take some action, bold, executable, intrinsic or targeted steps people can take to be it till they see it. What do you have for us?


Kristal DeSantis 34:35  

I have two. They're from my book. The exercises. One is, if you want to have more emotional connection with your partner, what I do is called the heartbeat exercise, and I honestly, I've seen people use it when they're dating. It's just as a way to kind of get beyond some of these surface-level conversations. So it's three points. It's a point of pride, a point of pain and a point of pleasure. So I like to imagine it as a heartbeat of the ups, the downs, and then the points that you can connect with. So asking your partner, you know, what is a point of pride, and then validating them, and then a point of pain, and then being practicing just holding space for that, and then offering care and then pleasure. Because even, again, with the dating period, is starting from the very beginning of normalizing, checking in about these three points will allow you to then set up in your relationship that we normalize talking about pain. We normalize checking in about pain. We normalize checking in about pleasure, and we check in with did you discover anything more pleasurable about our last sexual encounter? Or, you know, when you went on a walk today, did something special happen and you saw the first butterfly of the season, whatever. And so just normalizing some of these deeper points of connection.


Lesley Logan 35:44  

I love that. That's a great, that's a great one. That's so great. 


Kristal DeSantis 35:48  

Yeah, and then the other one, if we have time for another one. 


Lesley Logan 35:50  

Yeah, we totally do. 


Kristal DeSantis 35:52  

The differences between the way that men and women have been socialized to communicate. This is one of the things that I think a lot of people just makes so much sense when they work with me, or they do read my book, there are four positions of conversation. So position one and two are typically the way women are socialized to communicate with each other. Positions three and four are typically the way men are socialized to communicate with each other. And when we get you know one of each in a relationship, this is where I so often see people clash when it comes to communication. So position one is just listening. Position two is joining, offering empathy. Position three is fixing, and then position four is debating. So you can see how so many women are like, I just want him to listen and then empathize. And he's like, well, I'm fixing and I'm offering you a reframe. Come on. And so I think one of the big things, if you want to take an actionable step, is in my book, or there's the four positions of conversation, you can download it from my website as well and just put it on your fridge. And anytime you feel like you and your partner are like, not in the same conversation, just point it out. Like, can I ask you to move into position one for a second? Or I need position one and two before I'm going to be ready for position three. 


Lesley Logan 37:06  

Okay, Kristal, you are amazing. You're so great. All the Texans are so lucky to have you, and then those of us who aren't are just going to have to get your course, because, like, I learned so much, and these feel like common sense, but also no one, no one talks. And it's true, you hear so often, like, I don't want you to fix this. I just want you to listen. But that's if you're not trained to do that. If that's not the conversation skills you have, it's not that they're trying to do anything against you. That's what they think, that we're supposed to. Yeah. 


Kristal DeSantis 37:34  

You're trying so hard, and it's just not landing. So you know, again, this is where people can work together to help each other out. I love that you're offering a fix. What I'm really looking for is some empathy and listening right now. 


Lesley Logan 37:44  

Yeah, you are so fabulous. Thank you so much. I hope this was really helpful to all my listeners. I really thought it'd be an excellent way, because, also, if you want to be married for a long time to your partner, things are going to evolve. There's gonna be ups and downs on both sides, and the more we can understand the other person's perspective, the easier it is for us to be a partner without being a parent or being resentful, and we can grow together. So thank you, Kristal, for letting us have this amazing conversation. You guys. Go get her book. Strong:


Kristal DeSantis 38:15  

A Relationship Field Guide for the Modern Man 


Lesley Logan 38:17  

Perfect. Get her book. You can read it. Give it to your partner, and also for the parents out there, I think this can be a really great conversation, and for understanding like, how are you parenting, both if you have daughters and sons, and what does that look like? Because it is true, I think we can be doing a better job of helping everybody, so we can have these partnerships that really last and they're supportive, and everyone can be stronger together. So thank you so much, Kristal. 


Lesley Logan 38:41  

You guys, share this with a friend who needs it and tag Kristal. Tag the Be It Pod with your takeaways and until next time, Be It Till You See It. 


Lesley Logan 38:50  

That's all I got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It Podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate the show and leave a review and follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to your podcast. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over at the Be It Pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us and others Be It Till You See It. Have an awesome day. Be It Till You See It is a production of The Bloom Podcast Network. If you want to leave us a message or a question that we might read on another episode, you can text us at +1-310-905-5534 or send a DM on Instagram @BeItPod.


Brad Crowell 39:32  

It's written, filmed, and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan, and me, Brad Crowell.


Lesley Logan 39:37  

It is transcribed, produced and edited by the epic team at Disenyo.co.


Brad Crowell 39:42  

Our theme music is by Ali at Apex Production Music and our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi.


Lesley Logan 39:49  

Special thanks to Melissa Solomon for creating our visuals.


Brad Crowell 39:52  

Also to Angelina Herico for adding all of our content to our website. And finally to Meridith Root for keeping us all on point and on time.




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